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Hispanics Are Surging in Arizona

No, the employers fill them out. The government can easily, though audit processes that are already in place, do additional checks on the documentation given in I-9 forms to determine whether or not they are fraudulent. If they are, because the illegal gave false ID, then the company didn't know, and the illegal goes to prison for fraud, and is then deported when his sentence is finished. However, if the company management does not turn in I-9 forms, and illegals are working there, then the company management goes to jail. It's as simple as that.

Okay. That's beginning to make a little sense. But the I-9 form has been around since 1986. I've never filled one out in my life. Yet it says that every employee must fill one out. So how does an employer make the decision that he needs to have an I-9 from someone?
 
The irony here is pretty thick. Despite the government's harshest measures, the rate of increase of the Hispanic population is among the hugest in the United States.

For illegal immigration, Arizona authorities need to crack down, but if they take it as far as the bigotry that racial profiling is based on, then they should consider what it is like to be a minority in Arizona. After all, white people WILL be a minority in Arizona eventually. When that happens, they had better hope that the LEGAL Hispanic majority in Arizona doesn't remember what was done to them in an earlier time. If they do, then it is just possible that you might be seeing white people stopped by the police on a regular basis, and being forced to show proof that they are not members of the Ku Klux Klan.

Article is here.

Begining to look more and more like the ****hole of Mexico everyday isnt it.......
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Your trolling has been disregarded. Did you actually read the bill? Here's a clue, the bill doesn't define what reasonable suspicion is.
LOL, I provide the link explaining reasonable suspicion and you call it trolling. No law on the books now define reasonable suspicion. It's a creature of case law. Bet I've read the law more than you have. It's obvious you just want to remain willfully ignorant. Well, good job on that, at least.
 
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Okay. That's beginning to make a little sense. But the I-9 form has been around since 1986. I've never filled one out in my life. Yet it says that every employee must fill one out. So how does an employer make the decision that he needs to have an I-9 from someone?

It is the law. There MUST be an I-9 filled out on each and every employee employed by the company. Ignorance of the law is no excuse. If you have never filled one out, then the company you work for is in violation of the law. Of course, that law is not being enforced much, which is probably why you never had to fill one out.
 
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Oh well, if Newsweek says it.

Newsweek? Where have you been living under a rock?

Arizona Law Promotes Racial Profiling - Forbes.com

The problem is that the law (1) provides no standard for police as to what other than race constitutes reasonable suspicion; (2) requires police to make the reasonable suspicion assessment "during any lawful contact" with any person; (3) allows police to be sued if they under-enforce the law. Some of the law's proponents have suggested that the "lawful contact" clause means that only those already in trouble for some other reason will be subject to a demand for papers. This is false, and contrary to Fourth Amendment law.

Frequently Asked Questions About the Arizona Racial Profiling Law | American Civil Liberties Union

This bill, signed into law on April 23, 2010 by Arizona governor Jan Brewer, requires police officers in Arizona to demand papers proving citizenship or immigration status from people whom they stop, based only on some undefined "reasonable suspicion" that they are in the country unlawfully. But in America, everyone is supposed to be presumed innocent. This turns the presumption of innocence on its head.
 
How is it profiling to ask for a DL from everybody? If the driver has one, end of inquiry.

Did you actually read the thread? More proof of your trolling. She asked why asking for DL fell outside the protections of the 4th. I explained that it's not unreasonable to ask for DL if the person is driving. Keep up troll.
 
It is not on the employers to verify documents. All they have to do is obey the law, and fill out the I-9 forms. Through audit process already in place for employment taxes, and employee withholding, the government can compare documents submitted by employees when they begin work at a company to records in existing databases. If fraudulent documents are submitted by an illegal alien, then he is prosecuted for fraud, and deported after serving a prison sentence. But if employers do not submit I-9 forms, and illegals are found to be working at the company, the company owner, or whoever is responsible, goes to jail.

The problem with this is the government when it decides to actually check the documentation is so slow about it that illegals can avoid them. I have known a couple that simply get a new job about once a year knowing full well that it typically takes the government longer then that to catch up with their current place of employment. By job hopping they negate the governments effort. Now if employers could check they would likely never get the job.
 
A question for all --

Why can't the state of Arizone check I-9's? If an answer would be that it's "federal," then why can't Arizona make it "state" with their own law?
 
LOL, I provide the link explaining reasonable suspicion and you call it trolling. No law on the books now define reasonable suspicion. It's a creature of case law. Bet I've read the law more than you have. It's obvious you just want to remain willfully ignorant. Well, good job on that, at least.

I call it trolling because you still have not a clue as to what it is people are discussing. Whether reasonable suspicion is defined on Wikipedia or not is irrelevant. Reasonable suspicion as discussed in the bill is not defined within the bill. It's only been defined by training departments etc. Which is why everyone who is in opposition to this bill is saying that it ultimately will lead to racial profiling. The fact that you still don't know what the actual argument is is indicative of just how stupid most supporters of this law are.
 
Did you actually read the thread? More proof of your trolling. She asked why asking for DL fell outside the protections of the 4th. I explained that it's not unreasonable to ask for DL if the person is driving. Keep up troll.

Oh, not only am I caught up, I'm way ahead of you.
 
Again, and I'm typing slowly, no law on the books now define reasonable suspicion, and all laws require some degree of discretion and judgment from law enforcement. Stop pretending all this applies only to this law.

This is how ignorant you are. Reasonable doubt isn't based on personal discretion. Reasonable suspicion is based on articulable facts. What facts would you use in order to determine that there are grounds to ask a person whether they are illegal or not? Say they provide a legal driver's license but can't speak English properly. Then what? Do you tell them to go on their way? Come up with as many ways as you want. The Arizona law has none of those.
 
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I call it trolling because you still have not a clue as to what it is people are discussing. Whether reasonable suspicion is defined on Wikipedia or not is irrelevant. Reasonable suspicion as discussed in the bill is not defined within the bill. It's only been defined by training departments etc. Which is why everyone who is in opposition to this bill is saying that it ultimately will lead to racial profiling. The fact that you still don't know what the actual argument is is indicative of just how stupid most supporters of this law are.
For, like, the 50th time, reasonable suspicion is the standard now for all detentions. Why do you expect this law to do something no other law does? See, this is where you've shown the fatal flaw in your "argument" (such as it is). You don't understand the law, if you did, you'd recognize that on, it's face, it's constitutional. The only way to argue it's not, is to presume it will be enforced improperly. Your entire house of cards is based on that assumption.
 
This is how ignorant you are. Reasonable doubt isn't based on personal discretion. Reasonable suspicion is based on articulable facts. What facts would you use in order to determine that there are grounds to ask a person whether they are illegal or not? Say they provide a legal driver's license but can't speak English properly. Then what? Do you tell them to go on their way? Come up with as many ways as you want. The Arizona law has none of those.
What? Reasonable doubt is the legal standard at trial. Plus, I've already said if the driver provides a valid license that's the end of the inquiry. Even the law spells that out and gives a whole list of documents that end the inquiry, a DL being one of those.
 
For, like, the 50th time, reasonable suspicion is the standard now for all detentions. Why do you expect this law to do something no other law does? See, this is where you've shown the fatal flaw in your "argument" (such as it is). You don't understand the law, if you did, you'd recognize that on, it's face, it's constitutional. The only way to argue it's not, is to presume it will be enforced improperly. Your entire house of cards is based on that assumption.

Exactly!!!
 
The problem with this is the government when it decides to actually check the documentation is so slow about it that illegals can avoid them. I have known a couple that simply get a new job about once a year knowing full well that it typically takes the government longer then that to catch up with their current place of employment. By job hopping they negate the governments effort. Now if employers could check they would likely never get the job.

This is why we would require employers to turn in copies of I-9 forms along with their employment tax returns. It would streamline the system, by enabling the government to check, as a part of normal audit procedures.
 
A question for all --

Why can't the state of Arizone check I-9's? If an answer would be that it's "federal," then why can't Arizona make it "state" with their own law?

Actually, Arizona could. Collect copies of I-9's with employment tax returns, and check against existing government data bases.
 
I agree, go after the employers, but I also agree with the AZ law. It's my understanding that employers, police, welfare agencies, etc., can all access .gov data bases to verify social security and legal green card numbers.

One of the reasons I support AZ's efforts is that the feds are being bribed by corporate America to ignore enforcement of immigration laws, and that leads to chaos in states where illegal immigration is a big problem. Illegals in California cost over 20 billion per year in medical, welfare, education costs, etc., and what's more it's illegal for schools, hospitals, welfare agencies and law enforcement to even ask about a person's immigration status. So in effect, we have immigration laws (like every other country) but we are being prevented from implementing or enforcing them for political reasons... the republicans want cheap labor, the democrats want more votes. And both parties are willing to ignore the hardships on citizens and legal residents in order to get them.
 
For, like, the 50th time, reasonable suspicion is the standard now for all detentions. Why do you expect this law to do something no other law does?

Of course other laws define what reasonable suspicion is. How do you know whether a person is drunk driving? Erratic driving, failure to pass that walking test, alcohol breath. A homicide? Driving a vehicle associated with the murder, being at the crime scene during the crime, etc. Reasonable suspicion is more than a hunch. So what is the standard set around asking for a person's immigration status under reasonable suspicion? That's what this law doesn't define.

See, this is where you've shown the fatal flaw in your "argument" (such as it is). You don't understand the law, if you did, you'd recognize that on, it's face, it's constitutional. The only way to argue it's not, is to presume it will be enforced improperly. Your entire house of cards is based on that assumption.

You've shown nothing. You have claimed that the standard for reasonable suspicion has been raised up for this law when no standard for reasonable suspicion has been set at all. The law as it stands would allow reasonable suspicion to be simply whatever a police officer thinks it is.

So again I ask, what does the Arizona law define reasonable suspicion of being in the country illegally as?
 
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I agree, go after the employers, but I also agree with the AZ law. It's my understanding that employers, police, welfare agencies, etc., can all access .gov data bases to verify social security and legal green card numbers.

One of the reasons I support AZ's efforts is that the feds are being bribed by corporate America to ignore enforcement of immigration laws, and that leads to chaos in states where illegal immigration is a big problem. Illegals in California cost over 20 billion per year in medical, welfare, education costs, etc., and what's more it's illegal for schools, hospitals, welfare agencies and law enforcement to even ask about a person's immigration status. So in effect, we have immigration laws (like every other country) but we are being prevented from implementing or enforcing them for political reasons... the republicans want cheap labor, the democrats want more votes. And both parties are willing to ignore the hardships on citizens and legal residents in order to get them.

I would agree with it if the racial profiling is removed.
 
Of course other laws define what reasonable suspicion is. A DUI? Erratic driving, failure to pass that walking test, . A homicide? Driving a vehicle associated with the murder, being at the crime scene during the crime, etc. Reasonable suspicion is more than a hunch. So what is reasonable suspicion for asking for a person's immigration status? That's what this law doesn't define.
Show me one DUI statute that defines reasonable suspicion. I'll save you some time, none do. Those things you mention are the "articulable facts" that an officer will have to explain to a court to justify his detention. To believe what you're contending, a homicide law would read something like this, "Murder is intentionally causing the death of another person. Reasonable Suspicion to prove murder shall be defined as; driving a vehicle associated with the murder, being at the crime scene during the crime, and on and on" LOL That's ridiculous.


You've shown nothing. You have claimed that the standard for reasonable suspicion has been raised up for this law when no standard for reasonable suspicion has been set at all. The law as it stands would allow reasonable suspicion to be simply whatever a police officer thinks it is. So again I ask, what does the Arizona law define reasonable suspicion of being in the country as?
No, it is what the court is willing to say it is. As I said above, an officer will need to justify his stop and subsequent arrest to the court. This is not magic. It's not even that complicated, if you're not steadfastly committed to believing the wrong thing that is.
 
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I would agree with it if the racial profiling is removed.

Can you imagine if we created a law demanding that police officers ask whether a person is a serial killer or not? Now imagine there is no standard of reasonable suspicion for being a serial killer defined within this law. Obviously white males between the ages of 20-55 will the most targetted. 90% of serial killers are males. White males are more likely to be serial killers(84%). So then what would "reasonable suspicion" be for such a law? Being white and driving in a white neighborhood (88% of serial killer victims are white). The Arizona law is the exact same. It's a law which given the statistics of the group in question is necessarily going to fall under racial profiling.
 
Show me one DUI statute that defines reasonable suspicion.

http://www.sentencing.utah.gov/ProsecutionManual/chapter6.pdf

In order to stop a motor vehicle, an officer must have reasonable
articulable suspicion that a public offense is occurring or has occurred.
There are many legitimate reasons for such a stop which include, but are
not limited to suspicious activity, traffic violations, and equipment
violations. The objective reasoning for the stop is the only relevant issue
for review. The subjective mind set of the office is irrelevant. Pursuant to
Whren vs. United States, 517 U.S. 806, 813 (1996), the reasonableness of
a traffic stop does not depend upon the subjective intentions of an officer.

In other words, the days of arguing whether a traffic stop was a pretext for
other, unstated, reasons are history. See also State v. Lopez​

n justifying the particular intrusion the police officer must be able to
point to specific and articulable facts which, taken together with
rational inferences from those facts
, reasonable warrant intrusion.


6.3.1 - Traffic and equipment violations:

Observation of a traffic law violation is perhaps the most defensible reason
for stopping a vehicle. So long as the officer can articulate the observation
of the violation, a court should hold the stop to be lawful.


6.3.2. - Suspicious Driving:

In addition to patently obvious traffic law violations, officers may obtain
reasonable suspicion by observing other suspicious driving activities that
do not, by themselves, constitute and offense. The National Highway
Safety Administration identifies a number of clues which may be used in
order to form reasonable suspicion for a stop. These include:
Clues related to problems in maintaining proper lane position:
• Weaving within a lane;
• Weaving across lane lines;
• Straddling a lane line;
• Drifting;
• Swerving;
• Almost striking a vehicle or other object; and
• Turning with a wide radius, or drifting during a curve.​



You're out of your mind if you think that DUI statutes don't define reasonable suspicion.

I'll save you some time, none do. Those things you mention are the "articulable facts" that an officer will have to explain to a court to justify his detention. To believe what you're contending, a homicide law would read something like this, "Murder is intentionally causing the death of another person. Reasonable Suspicion to prove murder shall be defined as; driving a vehicle associated with the murder, being at the crime scene during the crime, and on and on" LOL That's ridiculous.

When you start off not knowing what you're talking about, you end up with posts like the one you just made.

No, it is what the court is willing to say it is. As I said above, an officer will need to justify his stop and subsequent arrest to the court. This is not magic. It's not even that complicated if you're not steadfastly committed to believing the wrong thing that is.

Lmao, more nonsense.
 
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