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Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights withou

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Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

stop, just stop already, you keep trotting this out, and it keeps getting smacked down....those 'union dues' come out of wages earned by the employee...you are implying that the employee hasnt earned this money, and that the state is just 'giving away' tax payer money to cover the dues...you know this is wrong, why on God's green earth do you keep trotting this line of bs out?

randel, unions just love having people like you for you are very easy to manipulate and brainwash. It really is a shame that you cannot see how unions keep you dependent and actually keep your wages down from what you could make on your own with a little incentive, creativity, and hard work. Everyone getting the same pay increase and no merit raises has to movtivate people with no initiative or drive plus the inability to lose your job due to seniority. With public unions the taxpayer gets screwed, with public unions companies go out of business.

I am going to point out exactly what happens with public unions no matter how much you dislike hearing the truth. Taxpayers fund union pay and benefits and regardless of how you feel that is reality.
 
Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

rich people made the poor people's lives better by building things like Walmarts and lowering their cost of living.

coming from Moore, though, the whole thing is rather rich.

WalMart is an excellent example of corporate hypocrisy taken to the nth degree. Sam Walton is in love with small town America so much that he virtually destroys its economic way of life by running small town main street right out of business replacing it with ugly boxes filled with crap from China. What a way to honor small town America.
 
Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

WalMart is an excellent example of corporate hypocrisy taken to the nth degree. Sam Walton is in love with small town America so much that he virtually destroys its economic way of life by running small town main street right out of business replacing it with ugly boxes filled with crap from China. What a way to honor small town America.

Just goes to show the hypocrisy of a liberal who is always concerned about the "little guy" but not about how little they pay for Wal-Mart goods and services. That evil corporation is the largest employer in the country and provides goods and services at lower prices for that "little guy." Wal-Mart is an incredible corporate citizen, creates a lot of opportunities for the employees, and generates incredible tax revenue for the govt. Not being union is all that liberals look at, true hypocrits
 
Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

Just goes to show the hypocrisy of a liberal who is always concerned about the "little guy" but not about how little they pay for Wal-Mart goods and services. That evil corporation is the largest employer in the country and provides goods and services at lower prices for that "little guy." Wal-Mart is an incredible corporate citizen, creates a lot of opportunities for the employees, and generates incredible tax revenue for the govt. Not being union is all that liberals look at, true hypocrits

There are some people who are slaves to the corporate mentality. They fully participate with a smile upon their face and larceny in their hearts the idea that average folks can be conned into going against their long term interests via giving them a short term gain. Sadly, by the time many average folks figure out they have been bent over the table and their way had with them, cheap toilet paper and cheaper toothpaste made in China will be the least of their problems. Then I wonder how the right wing ringmasters will deceive them next time to vote against their own long term self interest?
 
Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

There are some people who are slaves to the corporate mentality. They fully participate with a smile upon their face and larceny in their hearts the idea that average folks can be conned into going against their long term interests via giving them a short term gain. Sadly, by the time many average folks figure out they have been bent over the table and their way had with them, cheap toilet paper and cheaper toothpaste made in China will be the least of their problems. Then I wonder how the right wing ringmasters will deceive them next time to vote against their own long term self interest?



Absolutely, that corporate mentality that rewards performance and creates merit pay, something liberals do not understand. That can work for the private sector do and prosper, those that cannot work for the public sector and wallow in mediocrity
 
Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

WalMart is an excellent example of corporate hypocrisy taken to the nth degree. Sam Walton is in love with small town America so much that he virtually destroys its economic way of life by running small town main street right out of business replacing it with ugly boxes filled with crap from China. What a way to honor small town America.

You'd be wrong here, at least from my subjective experience.

When WalMart came to a little town in coal country Kentucky called Manchester, it provided hundreds of jobs to an area that sorely needed them. People came from all around to work and to shop. What few mom/pop stores were there couldn't even serve the needs of the population....much less at reasonable cost. No, WalMart was a step up in the world for this little burg.
 
Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

Absolutely, that corporate mentality that rewards performance and creates merit pay, something liberals do not understand. That can work for the private sector do and prosper, those that cannot work for the public sector and wallow in mediocrity

But what if this "performance" causes benefits for the company, but puts the entire global economy on the brink of destruction and then when the public bails them out, they do nothing to change the root problems that caused the crisis, thus almost ensuring that another one will occur in the future?
 
Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

There are some people who are slaves to the corporate mentality.

I wonder if people like you who constantly bitch about 'the corporate mentality' and talk about how evil corporations are, actually work for themselves, or for a corporation?
 
Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

You are missing a very important point and that is the benefits that the employee gets but doesn't pay for. Pension funds and healthcare funds are provided by the taxpayer for the employee and paid to the unions that manage both. That is a lot of money and a lot of control of taxpayer money. Also, in Wisconsin, the union dues are payroll deductions, not paid for by the employee. Payment of those dues comes from the taxpayer to the department to the unions.

I'm not sure how it works in Wisconsin. In California, the employee pays for the pension fund.

In your example, yes all funding for union employees comes from the taxpayer just like all funding for private sector employees comes from the customer. Without taxpayers or customers where wouldn't be any employees thus no spending at McDonalds.

Important Differences Between Government and Private-Sector Unions [Mackinac Center]

yes, just what I said before. According to your line of reasonikng, the public employee wouldn't have any money without his job, so any money that gets spent is tax money. Therefore, tax money is being spent to provide everything from beer to beerocks. And, as has been pointed out, that reasoning is spurious, and (almost) anyone can see that it is.
 
Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

I wonder if people like you who constantly bitch about 'the corporate mentality' and talk about how evil corporations are, actually work for themselves, or for a corporation?

When are you going to stop acting like a troll and actually add real content to the conversation, Whovian? This thread is not about anyone here at DP, you'll find those threads in the basement.
 
Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

But what if this "performance" causes benefits for the company, but puts the entire global economy on the brink of destruction and then when the public bails them out, they do nothing to change the root problems that caused the crisis, thus almost ensuring that another one will occur in the future?

Such are the drawbacks of freedom for with freedom comes responsibility. I did not support the bailout of the banks proposed and signed by Bush. Economists claim that is what saved the economy but I am not so sure. Free enterprise and capitalism is what made this country the greatest on the face of the earth because it rewards risk taking and incentive. Unfortunately there are always going to be greedy people in the world and those become the poster individuals for those that want to destroy the economic system we have. Overall however the good still outweighs the bad and anyone that violates their responsibility should be prosecuted and that includes those "evil" corporations. Our economy is too diverse and too dependent on the private sector to be destroyed by a few bad apples.
 
Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

When are you going to stop acting like a troll and actually add real content to the conversation, Whovian? This thread is not about anyone here at DP, you'll find those threads in the basement.

if you dont ****ing like what I post, feel free to complain to a moderator or feel free to not ****ing read it.
 
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Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

Dittohead not!;1059361981]I'm not sure how it works in Wisconsin. In California, the employee pays for the pension fund.

Not in Wisconsin



yes, just what I said before. According to your line of reasonikng, the public employee wouldn't have any money without his job, so any money that gets spent is tax money. Therefore, tax money is being spent to provide everything from beer to beerocks. And, as has been pointed out, that reasoning is spurious, and (almost) anyone can see that it is

It goes well beyond that and obviously you didn't read the entire article. Private sector businesses that are unionized go out of business and employees lose their jobs when companies are ineffecient or competition forces them to remain competitive but not so with public unions where the taxpayer simply funds any increases. People have a choice in the private sector but not the public sector. What you and others cannot see because of being blinded by an ideology is the harm public unions do to the state and thus the taxpayers. Name for me one public union that went out of business because of a state failure and then you will have a point. States cannot go bankrupt, businesses can and unions destroy business.
 
Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

Such are the drawbacks of freedom for with freedom comes responsibility. I did not support the bailout of the banks proposed and signed by Bush. Economists claim that is what saved the economy but I am not so sure. Free enterprise and capitalism is what made this country the greatest on the face of the earth because it rewards risk taking and incentive. Unfortunately there are always going to be greedy people in the world and those become the poster individuals for those that want to destroy the economic system we have. Overall however the good still outweighs the bad and anyone that violates their responsibility should be prosecuted and that includes those "evil" corporations. Our economy is too diverse and too dependent on the private sector to be destroyed by a few bad apples.

What about the CEOs and their responsibility to keep the financial world from collapsing, not to try to bring it to its knees just so they can get rich?

Edit: Also, seeing what you wrote, do you favor some regulation of the financial industry?
 
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Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

I wonder if people like you who constantly bitch about 'the corporate mentality' and talk about how evil corporations are, actually work for themselves, or for a corporation?

Most work for the public sector and thus are insulated from economic downturns and individual competition. States do not go bankrupt or out of business, they just raise taxes on the citizens.
 
Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

What about the CEOs and their responsibility to keep the financial world from collapsing, not to try to bring it to its knees just so they can get rich?

Edit: Also, seeing what you wrote, do you favor some regulation of the financial industry?

CEO's have a responsibility and normally the free market takes care of them. There was enough blame to go around in the financial crisis but many here want to simply blame CEO's. That is hardly the case as our govt. contributed significantly. There is regulation in the financial industry and that is where govt. failed.
 
Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

if you dont ****ing like what I post, feel free to complain to a moderator or fell free to not ****ing read it.
Why are you so angry? I was just giving you some friendly advice, you've been warned to add content in "Bias."
 
Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

Why are you so angry? I was just giving you some friendly advice, you've been warned to add content in "Bias."

when you are a moderator, feel free to give me advice... until then, kindly take your baiting and flaming and **** off.
 
Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

you are correct, you don't have total insight...you know precious little about how unions work....


Well, I wouldn't go that far. See, not only was there that, but as I have routinely reminded you, I grew up in a UAW town, state. Most, if not ALL of my friends worked for GM in one way or another. And I saw first hand what they got away with. The video of the workers from Detroit not too long ago wasn't that far off at all.

As for when I worked for Pepsi, as a side loader delivery person, one of my best friends in MD was the shop steward, and yes I did attend meetings when they were offered. See we were a small shop with only 14 drivers, and the local that represented us couldn't have cared less about anything other than taking my dues money. I think in 4 years we had, or were invited to 3 meetings. Two of those were contract approval sessions, and one was to ask that we stand with some Warehouse that was considering a strike, for $50 per week. Meanwhile, the relationship that having union representation in that business caused was not one where I thought it was a smooth endeavor to say the least. Let's just say that it IMHO causes a friction that doesn't need to be.

i'd be shocked if you attended one meeting in that whole time, and obviously didnt take the time to educate yourself...

You make far too many assumptions to be taken seriously.

tell me j, you have made your opinion well known, that you are anti-union, why take a job in a company that was unionized? seems to me that would have went against everything you stand for. certainly with your ' i don't need no stinkin' union' 'pull myself up by my bootstraps' way of thinking, being the resourceful guy that you are, you could have said 'no thanks' and went and found a non-union job...so...why did you stick around that long?

This was early on in my driving career, and I was very young with a family. I didn't know much back then and still thought that unions were ok. Chalk it up to being young and dumb...As I have been around for some time now it is not only Michigan, and my stint in Maryland that formed my opinion. My wife's father was Union all the way. Beth Steel in Baltimore for 40 years. In his prime that facility was over 5,000 strong, and a vibrant part of Baltimore. Now it would break your heart to see what it is. Little more than an eye sore on the way in to the harbor of Baltimore. With as few as 250 employees. When he retired, he had a pension, and a clock given him as a thanks for his 40 years of that place, and not two years after that he was informed that their pension fund was dead broke, and that it would be placed with the State for receivership, his monthly was cut by 2/3. Yeah he really came out good with that didn't he?

Let me just close with this. I am not totally anti Union. I can see where in a world of pendulum reality, that unions have a place with certain workplaces. Especially where work conditions, and safety of the employees are not being addressed by an employer properly. When my wife worked for Exel down here was a prime example. But, the problem is that unions inherently become corrupt, and go beyond what is a symbiotic relationship with the company's they destroy, and move toward greed themselves sucking the well dry, and then destroying the businesses they go after. And what of the people that the Unions have a direct hand in making available to the job market? huh? Do they care? hell no. When the business closes under the weight of the demands of the union mob, then the union just moves on and leaves its once proud members to dry up and blow away, in search of the next business concern to lean on for their protection racket.

Now your turn.

j-mac
 
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Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

CEO's have a responsibility and normally the free market takes care of them. There was enough blame to go around in the financial crisis but many here want to simply blame CEO's. That is hardly the case as our govt. contributed significantly. There is regulation in the financial industry and that is where govt. failed.

The government shares a large portion of the blame. They removed the regulations which kept the industry in check. Without those restrictions and regulations, the banks acted unrestrained to maximize profit; which is what business does. However, the unfettered release of their leveraging abilities allowed the banks to operate in a regime which was not sustainable, and it broke; quite spectacularly. No, the CEO's are not to blame either. There must be proper regulation from the government as well.
 
Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

The government shares a large portion of the blame. They removed the regulations which kept the industry in check. Without those restrictions and regulations, the banks acted unrestrained to maximize profit; which is what business does. However, the unfettered release of their leveraging abilities allowed the banks to operate in a regime which was not sustainable, and it broke; quite spectacularly. No, the CEO's are not to blame either. There must be proper regulation from the government as well.


The question is I think whether you want that regulation coming from a government in the form of control over your life, or through market forces where the people vote with their dollars.

j-mac
 
Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

The government shares a large portion of the blame. They removed the regulations which kept the industry in check. Without those restrictions and regulations, the banks acted unrestrained to maximize profit; which is what business does. However, the unfettered release of their leveraging abilities allowed the banks to operate in a regime which was not sustainable, and it broke; quite spectacularly. No, the CEO's are not to blame either. There must be proper regulation from the government as well.

No, they didn't remove all the regulations as there was enough oversight to prevent what happened, political correctness led to the problems we had in 2008 when it was determined by our govt. that everyone has a right to own a house and thus turned their heads on personal responsibility. The Senate banking and other oversight committees existed but were probably too busy with cocktail parties to do their job.
 
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Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

The question is I think whether you want that regulation coming from a government in the form of control over your life, or through market forces where the people vote with their dollars.

j-mac

Not all the regulations are enforcable through free market. In fact, the one which broke the system cannot be. There was a limit on the leverage banks could use on their loans. This is because without the external cap, the free market response is to ratchet it up as much as you can because the larger you can leverage the more possible money you can make. But highly leveraged loans are not sustainable, it's essentially a dramatic release of all the energy in the system. At some point, it can't keep going. But that point cannot be servoed through the free market as the free market response is short term and based on profit.

People saw it coming, they just couldn't do anything about it. As a bank you couldn't not participate. People were making money hand over fist and there was no way any player could stay out of it. You need government regulation in this case in order to put a hard limit on it. But there was a perfect storm a brewing. Clinton had gotten rid of a lot of restrictions on mergers and thus we had consolidated down our banks to essentially an oligopoly. Bush removed the leverage cap, and that spurred the system to react in the way it did. The result was that the system broke, and we now see the effects of what that breakage did.

Government cannot be totally divorced from the equation. If free market responses can handle a dynamic, it's typically best to allow the free market to do so. But it cannot address everything, and for the remainder we must use government in order to create a proper servo which will ensure stability in the market.
 
Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

No, they didn't remove all the regulations as there was enough oversight to prevent what happened, political correctness led to the problems we had in 2008 when it was determined by our govt. that everyone has a right to own a house and thus turned their heads on personal responsibility. The Senate banking and other oversight committees existed but were probably too busy with cocktail parties to do their job.

That wasn't the kicker. Those loans, sure they may not have been made otherwise; but also the banks were subsidized for it as well. That wasn't the breaking point. The breaking point came when the final restrictions on leveraging were released.
 
Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

To add to j-macs post concerning his experience with unions I would like to add mine. Since I graduated from high school with basically no money to pay for college I had a friend who had an "in" to the local IBEW (International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers) union. I took a test, applied and was accepted in their apprenticeship training program. The training program was the first evidence of what the union could do right: Produce trained, qualified workers. Next cool thing was when one Contractor ran out of work and you got laid off, you go to the union hall and sign up to take the next available job. We had a pretty sweet thing going. Most businesses in Mobile, Alabama at that time liked to hire union labor and were willing to pay a little bit extra for the quality. But things began to change after the first year I was a member. When I attended union meetings I found a lot of ignorant people were in leadership positions. They created a very much us versus them atmosphere between Contractors or owners if you will and the rank and file. Their attitude was to squeeze every last drop they could from the owners. The demands for pensions, vacations, medical and wages reached ridiculous proportions. Anyone one and I mean anyone who suggested reasonable alternatives was shouted down and intimidated. The union drove costs up so high that their usually loyal customers had no choice but to open up bidding to non-union shops. The union’s attitude was that they were union and they were better and you owed them. Somehow they couldn't imagine that the people who used union workers had a limit. They always thought that the Contractors and customers were being selfish and holding back on them. They threatened, and picketed their way out of business. A once formidable and viable organization lost it all. The rank and file began leaving and opening up their own non-union shops.
 
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