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Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights withou

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Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

ARealConservative said:
this thread pertains to public unions. you need to keep the proper context in mind, we shouldn't have to clarify with each post that we are not discussing private unions.
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I doubt that Donc still gets it or he is a typical liberal and cannot admit when wrong.
 
Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

wisconsin aint the only place lookin at recalls

Voters swept Miami-Dade Mayor Carlos Alvarez out of office by a stunning margin Tuesday, capping a dramatic collapse for a politician who was given increased authority by voters four years ago to clean up much-maligned county government but was ushered out in the largest recall of a local politician in U.S. history.

The spectacular fall from power comes after two years of missteps, ranging from granting top staffers big pay hikes to construction of a publicly funded stadium for the Florida Marlins to implementation of a property-tax rate increase that outraged an electorate struggling through an ugly recession.

Voters responded by handing the mayor a humiliating defeat: Nearly nine of every 10 voted to remove Alvarez from office.

County Commissioner Natacha Seijas was similarly recalled Tuesday in a resounding defeat. For 18 years she represented a district that includes Miami Lakes and Hialeah and was widely regarded as the most powerful politician on the commission.
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In dramatic revolt, Miami-Dade voters fire Mayor Carlos Alvarez over pay hikes, tax increase - Miami-Dade - MiamiHerald.com

90%!

in miami-dade!

party on, progressives
 
Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

MaggieD said:
In my opinion, the only way taxpayer dollars fund the public sector unions that cover teachers in Wisconsin is through the union's wholly-owned insurance company that provides health coverage for 2/3 of teachers in Wisconsin. That mandatory insurance carrier was bargained into union contracts. That's changed now. With the new legislation, there will be competition, and municipalities are confident this will result in significant savings.

If that particular scheme is what you're talking about, then I would agree with you that unions are partially funded by taxpayer dollars.

If you are saying that their union dues are taxpayer dollars, then I disagree. Teachers are paid a salary. Once that salary is in their hands, it's their money.

Oops. Here's the link for information about the union's enforced health plan: More districts now could drop insurance arm of teachers union - JSOnline
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-chuckles- I don't often disagree with your posts, this is one I just happen to. without taxpayer funding, teachers would not have jobs, their employer is basically the taxpayers of Wisconsin, now I might bow out, if teachers were given the choice to belong to that union or not to. But they aren't, if you want to teach at a public school in Wisconsin, you have to be a union member. To be a union member your dues are mandatory, that money that they are paid, comes from the taxpayers of Wisconsin.
 
Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

The Barbarian said:
-chuckles- I don't often disagree with your posts, this is one I just happen to. without taxpayer funding, teachers would not have jobs, their employer is basically the taxpayers of Wisconsin, now I might bow out, if teachers were given the choice to belong to that union or not to. But they aren't, if you want to teach at a public school in Wisconsin, you have to be a union member. To be a union member your dues are mandatory, that money that they are paid, comes from the taxpayers of Wisconsin.
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So because the money originated from the tax payer and ends up as Union dues eventually, the Unions are funded by the public? We're not considering the change in ownership of the money when it goes from the State to the teacher? I think it's a bit of a childish argument to state that the Unions themselves are funded by taxpayers because someone has to use part of their income and salary to pay dues to a union.
 
Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

Ikari said:
So because the money originated from the tax payer and ends up as Union dues eventually, the Unions are funded by the public? We're not considering the change in ownership of the money when it goes from the State to the teacher? I think it's a bit of a childish argument to state that the Unions themselves are funded by taxpayers because someone has to use part of their income and salary to pay dues to a union.
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I cannot believe you and others cannot see the connection. Where do you think the money comes from to fund the unions if not the salaries of the workers, a salary paid for by the taxpayers? Did you ever take a logic's class in school?
 
Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

Conservative said:
I cannot believe you and others cannot see the connection. Where do you think the money comes from to fund the unions if not the salaries of the workers, a salary paid for by the taxpayers? Did you ever take a logic's class in school?
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Well let's see...PhD physicist....logic....yeah I think I'm good at that. I cannot believe you and others cannot understand ownership and property. When a teacher is paid, that's his/her money. If they made obligations to the Union to pay them out of their salary, that is THEIR MONEY they are paying to their union. Not the tax payers. It's a dumb dumb dumb argument to claim that the Unions are paid by tax payers because you can trace the money through enough people to eventually arrive at the government and say "AH HA!". I cannot believe you can't see THAT. Let's not make retarded arguments here. I have to pay my rent, I have to pay may bike payments, I have to buy food. It's like saying that because I have to spend money on this that my landlord, my credit union, and the grocery stores I go to are funded and supported by tax payer dollars because I have to spend my money on these things. That's how STUPID the argument is. Did YOU take a logic class in school? Maybe not, it seems that leaps of logic are your thing if you're truly going to believe an argument as painfully ignorant as that.

I can see the connection your ilk is trying to make. It's just ****ing dumb.
 
Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

Conservative said:
I cannot believe you and others cannot see the connection. Where do you think the money comes from to fund the unions if not the salaries of the workers, a salary paid for by the taxpayers? Did you ever take a logic's class in school?
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I think everyone understands that the salaries of public workers comes from the taxpayers (which public workers are themselves). People are taking issue with the fact that you think this gives other taxpayers a right to have an input on how public workers spend their money. By the same logic, anyone with a job has to answer to anyone that contributed to their salary.

When the state gives the money to the public worker, that money becomes the property of the public worker. Public workers exchange work for money, they don't exchange work + rights to determine where they spend their salary for money.
 
Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

theplaydrive said:
When the state gives the money to the public worker, that money becomes the property of the public worker. Public workers exchange work for money, they don't exchange work + rights to determine where they spend their salary for money.
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A-****ing-men! Thank you Jebus. Finally a soul who understands property.
 
Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

Ikari said:
Well let's see...PhD physicist....logic....yeah I think I'm good at that. I cannot believe you and others cannot understand ownership and property. When a teacher is paid, that's his/her money. If they made obligations to the Union to pay them out of their salary, that is THEIR MONEY they are paying to their union. Not the tax payers. It's a dumb dumb dumb argument to claim that the Unions are paid by tax payers because you can trace the money through enough people to eventually arrive at the government and say "AH HA!". I cannot believe you can't see THAT. Let's not make retarded arguments here. I have to pay my rent, I have to pay may bike payments, I have to buy food. It's like saying that because I have to spend money on this that my landlord, my credit union, and the grocery stores I go to are funded and supported by tax payer dollars because I have to spend my money on these things. That's how STUPID the argument is. Did YOU take a logic class in school? Maybe not, it seems that leaps of logic are your thing if you're truly going to believe an argument as painfully ignorant as that.

I can see the connection your ilk is trying to make. It's just ****ing dumb.
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I don't see any logic in your argument so try again, taxpayers fund the teacher's salary for without taxpayers there wouldn't be any jobs thus the taxpayer money becomes the teacher's money which unions demand dues thus forcing teachers to pay those dues which come from their salary. It is no wonder we are in such a mess in this country when you and others cannot grasp the simple concept of transfer of payment from the taxpayers to the unions through the teachers.
 
Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

ARealConservative said:
this thread pertains to public unions. you need to keep the proper context in mind, we shouldn't have to clarify with each post that we are not discussing private unions.
Click to expand...

Define what you consider public unions. Would the teamster local, that represents the Wasila Alaska police dept. be considered a public union?
 
Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

Conservative said:
I don't see any logic in your argument so try again, taxpayers fund the teacher's salary for without taxpayers there wouldn't be any jobs thus the taxpayer money becomes the teacher's money which unions demand dues thus forcing teachers to pay those dues which come from their salary. It is no wonder we are in such a mess in this country when you and others cannot grasp the simple concept of transfer of payment from the taxpayers to the unions through the teachers.
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If you cannot see any logic in my argument, then we're done because you are unable to see logic.


I am paid by the taxpayers. Are you saying my landlord is funded by the taxpayers? Just because the taxpayers pay my salary does not mean the money I spend is your money. It's MY money. I worked for it, I exchanged my labor for it, it's mine. It's the same with the teachers. They exchange their labor in service of the State, so the State pays them. Once they pay them, that money is NO LONGER STATE MONEY. It belongs to the individual who exchanged their labor for it. That's it. When they pay their union dues, they are not paying it with YOUR MONEY. It is THEIR MONEY. They are the ones who did the work, they were the ones who received compensation for that work in the form of money, they are the ones who agreed to be part of the Union, they are the ones who use their money in order to pay their union dues.

That's it. If you can't see the logic, you are incapable of seeing logic. That's all there is to it.
 
Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

Ikari said:
If you cannot see any logic in my argument, then we're done because you are unable to see logic.


I am paid by the taxpayers. Are you saying my landlord is funded by the taxpayers? Just because the taxpayers pay my salary does not mean the money I spend is your money. It's MY money. I worked for it, I exchanged my labor for it, it's mine. It's the same with the teachers. They exchange their labor in service of the State, so the State pays them. Once they pay them, that money is NO LONGER STATE MONEY. It belongs to the individual who exchanged their labor for it. That's it. When they pay their union dues, they are not paying it with YOUR MONEY. It is THEIR MONEY. They are the ones who did the work, they were the ones who received compensation for that work in the form of money, they are the ones who agreed to be part of the Union, they are the ones who use their money in order to pay their union dues.

That's it. If you can't see the logic, you are incapable of seeing logic. That's all there is to it.
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Your landlord is indeed funded by the taxpayer money that goes to you. You have a choice however to live in that place and fund that landlord, not so with the public unions in Wisconsin. There is no choice there thus the taxpayers do fund the unions through the union teachers. No one is claiming you didn't work for the money but you are ignoring where that money comes from and if there were no taxpayers there wouldn't be any job thus no money for you to fund your unions. Same with private sector union employees, no business no salaries but the difference is people choose where to spend their money in the private sector.

If you cannot understand this logic then you are part of the problem.
 
Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

uh oh, illinois

No Easy Fixes in Illinois Pension Mess - WSJ.com

one of the very few united states with a democrat house, senate and gub is looking to BURN

with state pensions ONLY FORTY FIVE PERCENT FUNDED (worst in the nation) the pols are pushing plans to punish employees by prescribing them to pay more, wait longer AND receive less

even if ALL OF THE ABOVE is in direct violation of CONTRACTS agreed upon

wait a minute, didn't GOVERNOR QUINN just raise taxes an astounding SIXTY SIX PERCENT?

by taxing teachers TWENTY PERCENT towards retirement, illinois' unlucky leaders look to leverage a whole twenty five billion

unfortunately, the state is EIGHTY TWO BIL beneath

they're considering going to DC for help

you can f-g-i that, forget about it

how did we get here?

how do we get out?

why do teachers in my state of california draw retirements some FOUR HUNDRED PERCENT higher than ordinary americans who depend on insulting soc sec?

THESE are the questions of our times
 
Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

donc said:
Define what you consider public unions. Would the teamster local, that represents the Wasila Alaska police dept. be considered a public union?
Click to expand...

This thread isn't about the teamsters or what is going on in Wasila. Just admit you are wrong and let's move on
 
Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

Conservative said:
Your landlord is indeed funded by the taxpayer money that goes to you. You have a choice however to live in that place and fund that landlord, not so with the public unions in Wisconsin. There is no choice there thus the taxpayers do fund the unions through the union teachers. No one is claiming you didn't work for the money but you are ignoring where that money comes from and if there were no taxpayers there wouldn't be any job thus no money for you to fund your unions. Same with private sector union employees, no business no salaries but the difference is people choose where to spend their money in the private sector.

If you cannot understand this logic then you are part of the problem.
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This is just some of the dumbest, juvanile arguments I have ever seen. It completly ignores property and ownership. My landlord is not funded with taxpayer dollars, he is in part funded by MY dollars. You want to take away my labor, and it's bull****. You don't want to acknowledge MY WORK. That's what you're really saying. By continually claiming MY money is Taxpayer money you're saying I didn't earn it, that it was not fair trade.

It is too early in the morning to deal with this level of stupid arguments.
 
Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

Ikari said:
This is just some of the dumbest, juvanile arguments I have ever seen. It completly ignores property and ownership. My landlord is not funded with taxpayer dollars, he is in part funded by MY dollars. You want to take away my labor, and it's bull****. You don't want to acknowledge MY WORK. That's what you're really saying. By continually claiming MY money is Taxpayer money you're saying I didn't earn it, that it was not fair trade.

It is too early in the morning to deal with this level of stupid arguments.
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MY Dollars come from the wages paid for by the taxpayers. Cannot believe how brainwashed some people are and it is only stupid by those who fail to open their eyes. See if this explains it to you

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kxc6kzH-uI
 
Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

theplaydrive said:
I think everyone understands that the salaries of public workers comes from the taxpayers (which public workers are themselves). People are taking issue with the fact that you think this gives other taxpayers a right to have an input on how public workers spend their money. By the same logic, anyone with a job has to answer to anyone that contributed to their salary.

When the state gives the money to the public worker, that money becomes the property of the public worker. Public workers exchange work for money, they don't exchange work + rights to determine where they spend their salary for money.
Click to expand...

It apparently isn't a problem for you for Unions to tell their workers that they have to pay union dues?

Seems to be quite a misunderstanding of how public unions vs. private unions work. See if this explains it better?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=su4PwZCWUdg&feature=player_embedded
 
Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

The Prof said:
uh oh, illinois

No Easy Fixes in Illinois Pension Mess - WSJ.com

one of the very few united states with a democrat house, senate and gub is looking to BURN

with state pensions ONLY FORTY FIVE PERCENT FUNDED (worst in the nation) the pols are pushing plans to punish employees by prescribing them to pay more, wait longer AND receive less

even if ALL OF THE ABOVE is in direct violation of CONTRACTS agreed upon

wait a minute, didn't GOVERNOR QUINN just raise taxes an astounding SIXTY SIX PERCENT?

by taxing teachers TWENTY PERCENT towards retirement, illinois' unlucky leaders look to leverage a whole twenty five billion

unfortunately, the state is EIGHTY TWO BIL beneath

they're considering going to DC for help

you can f-g-i that, forget about it

how did we get here?

how do we get out?

why do teachers in my state of california draw retirements some FOUR HUNDRED PERCENT higher than ordinary americans who depend on insulting soc sec?

THESE are the questions of our times
Click to expand...

Illinois is always ****ed. It has less to do with pensions and more to do with an endless cycle of stupid.
 
Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

Conservative said:
MY Dollars come from the wages paid for by the taxpayers. Cannot believe how brainwashed some people are and it is only stupid by those who fail to open their eyes. See if this explains it to you

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kxc6kzH-uI
Click to expand...

I see everything that you are doing as clear as day. It's called reverse engineering an argument. I used to do the same thing in 5th grade. You want to say the unions are publically supported and thus can be properly interfered with; you have to make that connection. You've made a leap in logic to do so because you ignore the fact that people have EARNED the money, thus making the money their own, not governments. The government has public schools, which teach all our children. The government needs teachers to work in those schools so that they can teach all our children. The government hires teachers to teach in those schools which teach all our children. The government PAYS the teachers for THEIR WORK in those schools teaching all our children. The money the teachers get is no longer government money, it is now PRIVATE money. It has a new owner, and this is the step you purposefully and dishonestly skip over each and every time so that you can try to claim that the unions are supported via federal funding. Money changed hands, old owners became non-owners, previous non-owners became owners. This is the break down point of your logically flawed argument, in fact it is the actual logical flaw in your argument. At this point, it ceases to be taxpayer dollars and becomes private money held by an individual. An individual who agreed to contractual terms to join a union and thus is now obligated to pay the union. They agreed to those terms, we have right to contract and they exercised that right by agreeing to be in the union. The individual still made the choice. If they didn't want to be in that union, they didn't need to take that job. They made a choice.

Your argument fails on nearly every level possible and in the end is nothing more than anti-union propaganda.
 
Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

theplaydrive said:
Study property, property rights and the history of both. Then come back.
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It's not a desire because it goes against what they want to try to say in their arguments. They want to claim that these unions are publically funded and then claim that because of it, there is proper action government can take against it. They are stuck there. If they want to claim that, they have to make the argument they've been making. It doesn't matter if they're wrong, there is political motivation to keep the argument due to the conclusion they want to push. It's a reverse engineered argument, but one they will cling to with all their might.
 
Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

theplaydrive said:
Study property, property rights and the history of both. Then come back.
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Keep shifting the goalposts, this has nothing to do with property rights or individual property it all, it is about unions forcing people to pay for union membership from money which comes from the taxpayers of Wisconsin. You have already said that you supported what Walker did so why are you diverting to another topic?
 
Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

I tend to agree with the personal property argument, such as it is in here IF those public employees who work in a closed shop environment, get their pay, post tax, and have to physically write the check for their dues. Is that the case, or are the dues taken out line item like SS?


j-mac
 
Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

Ikari said:
So because the money originated from the tax payer and ends up as Union dues eventually, the Unions are funded by the public? We're not considering the change in ownership of the money when it goes from the State to the teacher? I think it's a bit of a childish argument to state that the Unions themselves are funded by taxpayers because someone has to use part of their income and salary to pay dues to a union.
Click to expand...

Yes perhaps as you say.... it's childish, but that doesn't make it any less true, the bottom line is without taxpayer's money, those unions don't exist.
 
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