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Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights withou

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Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

Erod said:
How is forcing people against their will to belong to a union just to go to work a beautiful thing?

Sounds pretty communistic to me.
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it allows a naturally parasitic entity to survive longer than it otherwise would. that's what makes it 'beautiful'.
 
Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

Conservative said:
Does that hold true of those corporations that the left seems to hate? How about public unions that live off the taxpayer dollars? You don't see a conflict of interest in public unions backing candidates that spend taxpayer dollars freely?
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1. Unions don't spend taxpayer dollars; they spend the dues union members pay. I just asked my relative to who is in a teacher's union. She pays $1000 every year. Union members should be able to spend their own money to fight for work conditions that they believe they should get. If they were just supposed to take what's given, no one would ever work in government.
2. It does hold true, at least for me, for corporations that I think work against my interests and those of the general public. Like I said, if you want influence get it. There are enough middle class people who can form organizations (one of which I consider unions) to fight against greedy corporations. Society is a competition of ideas - everyone should be able to compete.
 
Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

theplaydrive said:
I fail to see the problem with unions contributing to campaigns that support their members' interests. People joins unions because they know that they are the most efficient means of protecting their political interests...
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That also means that you have no problem with big corporate donations as well correct? Don't those donations go to the people that who represent those that own, run, and work for that corporation?
 
Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

everyone should certainly be allowed to compete...

....except that when you are a public employee then the entity whose will you are trying to overturn is that of the soverign people....

and that's a whole 'nother ball o wax.
 
Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

EarlzP said:
Please tell me did she quit her position in protest?
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how many teachers in Wisconsin have quit theirs?
 
Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

donc said:
I can guarantee that the lady involved Union dues wasn't used for political purpose.It is a separate PAC and the money donated to the PAC is on a voluntarily basis.
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In my wife's union (I assume it the same for all) her union dues do go towards the printing of a monthly magazine. The monthly mag has many stories advocating a certain political position or political person/party. Also, due to the fungibility of money, it is really difficult to ascertain whether dues are actually being used for political action.
 
Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

theplaydrive said:
1. Unions don't spend taxpayer dollars; they spend the dues union members pay. I just asked my relative to who is in a teacher's union. She pays $1000 every year. Union members should be able to spend their own money to fight for work conditions that they believe they should get. If they were just supposed to take what's given, no one would ever work in government.
2. It does hold true, at least for me, for corporations that I think work against my interests and those of the general public. Like I said, if you want influence get it. There are enough middle class people who can form organizations (one of which I consider unions) to fight against greedy corporations. Society is a competition of ideas - everyone should be able to compete.
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And where exactly do the unions get their money to pay those union dues?
 
Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

The Barbarian said:
That also means that you have no problem with big corporate donations as well correct? Don't those donations go to the people that who represent those that own, run, and work for that corporation?
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You can see from my posts after this one, I do not have a problem with corporations giving money to political parties. There are enough middle class people to organize against them. I see unions as one of the means that many of these people have chosen to do so.

But again, with all contributions, there need to be limits and ethics associated with them, or else we will all risk the chance of getting screwed by someone.
 
Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

Conservative said:
And where exactly do the unions get their money to pay those union dues?
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This is your logic:
1. Teachers get paid, in part, by property taxes...that they and their supporters also pay.
2. Teachers now have their own money.
3. Because their salary ultimately comes from money that they, their supporters and their detractors pay in taxes, they shouldn't be able to give such personal money to unions that they perceive as advancing their interests.

I disagree. When I buy shoes from Nike, I'm not going to claim that since I contributed to the salary of a Nike worker with my personal money, they should have to use the money from their salary to support Democrats or that they shouldn't be able to support Republicans. That's absurd.
 
Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

theplaydrive said:
This is your logic:
1. Teachers get paid, in part, by property taxes...that they and their supporters also pay.
2. Teachers now have their own money.
3. Because their salary ultimately comes from money that they, their supporters and their detractors pay in taxes, they shouldn't be able to give such personal money to unions that they perceive as advancing their interests.

I disagree. When I buy shoes from Nike, I'm not going to claim that since I contributed to the salary of a Nike worker with my personal money, they should have to use the money from their salary to support Democrats or that they shouldn't be able to support Republicans. That's absurd.
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Teachers and all other public sector employees are ALL paid by TAXES which come from the taxpayer no matter how you spin it. That means the taxpayers send money to the local taxing authority who pays workers with that money including unions. Get it yet?

When you buy something from a private company you do so with money that you didn't get from the taxpayers but instead from the consumers that purchased the products that company sells. You seem to not understand that basic concept.
 
Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

Conservative said:
Teachers and all other public sector employees are ALL paid by TAXES which come from the taxpayer no matter how you spin it. That means the taxpayers send money to the local taxing authority who pays workers with that money including unions. Get it yet?

When you buy something from a private company you do so with money that you didn't get from the taxpayers but instead from the consumers that purchased the products that company sells. You seem to not understand that basic concept.
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When you get paid money that you worked for then that money is yours and yours alone. It does not matter where the money came from. It could come from the man on the moon and it would not matter. Because it is your money. Not the taxpayers. Not Joe blows down the street. Your money.

When the IRS comes a knocking on the door of a public worker they do not knock on his nieghbors door as part of that public workers audit. They just knock on his. No one elses.
 
Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

Conservative said:
Teachers and all other public sector employees are ALL paid by TAXES which come from the taxpayer no matter how you spin it. That means the taxpayers send money to the local taxing authority who pays workers with that money including unions. Get it yet?
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I didn't spin it. I said that their salaries come from taxpayers. I took issue with your implication that teachers and their supporters, both which are also taxpayers, should have less of a voice than other taxpayers.

When you buy something from a private company you do so with money that you didn't get from the taxpayers but instead from the consumers that purchased the products that company sells. You seem to not understand that basic concept.
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1. I understand the basic concept. distracting yourself, me and others on this board from the idea that we're arguing about by insulting me is not a good way to get your point across. I've noticed this is a tactic that you often employ; it never seems to work.

2. This is your claim: If teachers get money from taxpayers, then they shouldn't be able to spend it on political organizations. This assertion works on the logic that you don't want your money going to political organizations whose politics you don't support. However, when you give your money to a Nike employee and that employee gives his money to Democrats or socialists, your money is still going to places you don't support.

In both cases, you are giving money to people and supporting institutions who will spend your money on supporting political parties that you don't support.

Even further, taxpayers pay teachers to teach, not to uphold their political interests. They give you work in exchange for money. Money doesn't buy you control over what organizations they choose to contribute to.
 
Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

Kal'Stang said:
When you get paid money that you worked for then that money is yours and yours alone. It does not matter where the money came from. It could come from the man on the moon and it would not matter. Because it is your money. Not the taxpayers. Not Joe blows down the street. Your money.

When the IRS comes a knocking on the door of a public worker they do not knock on his nieghbors door as part of that public workers audit. They just knock on his. No one elses.
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Wrong, when you get money for working in the public sector it is money that the taxpayers paid to those employees since the govt. produces nothing of value except a service required by the taxpayers. If there were no taxpayers there would be no public employees but without taxpayers there are private sector businesses. I just don't get how some of you think. Money doesn't grow on trees, private sector money comes from the purchase of goods and services and doesn't cost the taxpayer a dime. You don't want to buy a service your choice, but not so with public employees.
 
Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

theplaydrive said:
I didn't spin it. I said that their salaries come from taxpayers. I took issue with your implication that teachers and their supporters, both which are also taxpayers, should have less of a voice than other taxpayers.



1. I understand the basic concept. distracting yourself, me and others on this board from the idea that we're arguing about by insulting me is not a good way to get your point across. I've noticed this is a tactic that you often employ; it never seems to work.

2. This is your claim: If teachers get money from taxpayers, then they shouldn't be able to spend it on political organizations. This assertion works on the logic that you don't want your money going to political organizations whose politics you don't support. However, when you give your money to a Nike employee and that employee gives his money to Democrats or socialists, your money is still going to places you don't support.

In both cases, you are giving money to people and supporting institutions who will spend your money on supporting political parties that you don't support.

Even further, taxpayers pay teachers to teach, not to uphold their political interests. They give you work in exchange for money. Money doesn't buy you control over what organizations they choose to contribute to.
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Right, it is called a conflict of interest, state public union employees should have the same rights as federal worker employees and vice versa. Federal Union employees don't have full collective bargaining rights, why? What is it that Congress and the President knows that the states don't?

Sorry for the so called insults but you sound rather young and naive when it comes to economics and political issues.
 
Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

Conservative said:
Right, it is called a conflict of interest, state public union employees should have the same rights as federal worker employees and vice versa. Federal Union employees don't have full collective bargaining rights, why? What is it that Congress and the President knows that the states don't?

Sorry for the so called insults but you sound rather young and naive when it comes to economics and political issues.
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anyone who disagrees with you is 'young and naive' in your book...same shinola, different day.
 
Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

randel said:
anyone who disagrees with you is 'young and naive' in your book...same shinola, different day.
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The one line responder is back, try responding to the post. Support public unions living off the taxpayer dollars.
 
Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

Conservative said:
Wrong, when you get money for working in the public sector it is money that the taxpayers paid to those employees since the govt. produces nothing of value except a service required by the taxpayers. If there were no taxpayers there would be no public employees but without taxpayers there are private sector businesses. I just don't get how some of you think. Money doesn't grow on trees, private sector money comes from the purchase of goods and services and doesn't cost the taxpayer a dime. You don't want to buy a service your choice, but not so with public employees.
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what those public employees get is called wages, which they can spend any damn way that they want, regardless if you like it or not. who are you to tell someone what they can and can not spend money on?
 
Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

Catawba said:
Cool beans! I'll happily give up my $100 so those making over $1 million will again be paying their fair share, $93,000 more on average for those making over $1 mil! :sun
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There you go... see we can come to agreement, so tell me again why the liberal democrats that controlled all branches of the government didn't do that ?? You should really be pissed at the Democrats .... not the Republicans
 
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Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

randel said:
what those public employees get is called wages, which they can spend any damn way that they want, regardless if you like it or not. who are you to tell someone what they can and can not spend money on?
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Two different issues, one, the paycheck which comes from the taxpayer and the other how that money is spent which is no one else's business. You and others continue to miss the point intentionally I might add, no taxpayers no public employees. taxpayers of Wisconsin pay for all public employees and their benefits.

You don't work for a pubic union therefore aren't paid for by the taxpayers. You are paid out of the products your company sells. Amazing that you and others don't understand where your paycheck comes from.

The issue is public union employees forced into a union thus forced to give their money in dues, dues which come from their paychecks which come from the taxpayers. Thus taxpayer money is being used to fund the union management and all union expenses including campaign contributions.
 
Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

Conservative said:
Right, it is called a conflict of interest, state public union employees should have the same rights as federal worker employees and vice versa. Federal Union employees don't have full collective bargaining rights, why? What is it that Congress and the President knows that the states don't?

Sorry for the so called insults but you sound rather young and naive when it comes to economics and political issues.
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Your apology obviously wasn't a real one, but I appreciate the effort and I don't need it to be honest. I am confident in what I know because I have taken the time become informed about this issue and because I take time to understand your points and deconstruct them rather than insult you for believing them. Nothing you say about me will affect this. You should also know that people can be informed and disagree with you.

The fact remains, you have no claim to a teacher's money or to a police officer's money or to a firefighter's money. The only thing that your taxes buy is their work. They are not slaves; they are employees. They work for money. Labor in exchange for money.
 
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Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

Conservative said:
Two different issues, one, the paycheck which comes from the taxpayer and the other how that money is spent which is no one else's business. You and others continue to miss the point intentionally I might add, no taxpayers no public employees. taxpayers of Wisconsin pay for all public employees and their benefits.

You don't work for a pubic union therefore aren't paid for by the taxpayers. You are paid out of the products your company sells. Amazing that you and others don't understand where your paycheck comes from.

The issue is public union employees forced into a union thus forced to give their money in dues, dues which come from their paychecks which come from the taxpayers. Thus taxpayer money is being used to fund the union management and all union expenses including campaign contributions.
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what you advocate is like that restaurant owner in ohio tried to pull before the last elections...put that little note with the paycheck kinda hinting at who they should vote for if they wanted to keep their jobs....no conservative, it is wages earned, these workers provide a service for the tax payers, of which they also are. ....without them, government doesnt function. what they earn is their own, and regardless of the source, is theirs to spend as they please...drop your bs argument, you have no right telling anyone that because they work for 'A', that they can't spend their money on 'B'. seriously, who the hell do you think you are to dictate terms to people on how they can spend their income?
 
Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

theplaydrive said:
Your apology obviously wasn't a real one, but I appreciate the effort and I don't need it to be honest. I am confident in what I know because I have taken the time become informed about this issue and because I take time to understand your points and deconstruct them rather than insult you for believing them. Nothing you say about me will affect this. You should also know that people can be informed and disagree with you.

The fact remains, you have no claim to a teacher's money or to a police officer's money or to a firefighter's money. The only thing that your taxes buy is their work. They are not slaves; they are employees. They work for money. Labor in exchange for money.
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I have the choice not to live in a particular district or a particular state thus a choice on whether or not to pay taxes that funds those teachers or those police and firefighters. People in Wisconsin do not have a choie to join a union and that union gives them full collective bargaining rights which Federal union employees don't have and there is a reason for that. So the real issue here is should State public union employees be forced into a union thus forced to contribute to those unions which means taxpayer dollars going to fund campaign contributions? I do not support collective bargaining rights for public employees either Federal or state.
 
Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

randel said:
what you advocate is like that restaurant owner in ohio tried to pull before the last elections...put that little note with the paycheck kinda hinting at who they should vote for if they wanted to keep their jobs....no conservative, it is wages earned, these workers provide a service for the tax payers, of which they also are. ....without them, government doesnt function. what they earn is their own, and regardless of the source, is theirs to spend as they please...drop your bs argument, you have no right telling anyone that because they work for 'A', that they can't spend their money on 'B'. seriously, who the hell do you think you are to dictate terms to people on how they can spend their income?
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You ought to be thankful for a union and I can see why. Without it you would be unemployed. The private sector can do whatever it wants to do and what they will do is if forced into a union will either move or go out of business. Unions have outlived their usefulness as evidence by less than 12% of the workforce being unionized. unions, like the Democrat party, want people dependent. I live in a state where teachers aren't public union employees and is a right to work state. People have a choice here something that scares the hell out of unions. We cannot allow people to think for themselves, can we?
 
Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

Conservative said:
Wrong, when you get money for working in the public sector it is money that the taxpayers paid to those employees since the govt. produces nothing of value except a service required by the taxpayers.
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What an amazing statement. You don't get anything of value from government employees except the service for the taxpayers. Simply amazing. And you consider that an indictment and a statement of something negative.

The way the right wing mind works is one of the real mysteries of life since it depends completely and totally on a belief system that denies much of reality. In this case, it dismisses the value of the service to the taxpayer and tries to pretend that it is insignificant.

You ought to be thankful for a union and I can see why. Without it you would be unemployed.
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WOW!!!! And nothing like a personal insult cutting one to the core on a nice Sunday afternoon. The union does not hire anyone outside of those who make up a small staff who work for it. What it does do is attempt to represent those who management hires.

this is just more of the same old crap from Turtle who needs badly to chang..... wait..... sorry Turtle ..... this came from Conservative who seems to be violating the copyright on your same ideas. either that or you both owe Lew Rockwell a dinner.
 
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