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Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights withou

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Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

Conservative said:
Taxpayers don't fund tax breaks as tax breaks aren't an expense to the govt. It isn't the government's money first.
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Ain't that hillarious?
 
Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

apdst said:
That doesn't even make any sense! :lamo

Two-thirds of Wisconsin eighth-graders can't read on an eighth-grade level. Is a lack of money really the problem?
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We've been through this before. You are referring to a nationwide problem not one unique to Wisconsin. How do you suppose less funding will improve it? How does giving that funding in corporate tax breaks improve those minority population's reading and math scores?
 
Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

ARealConservative said:
you keep parading around here telling people that while they are crushing you with facts
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Nobody has crushed me with facts. Nobody has provided me with the apparent 30 year record of unions continuously preventing meaningful education form. I asked someone for a list of those reforms and explanations for why we should consider them 'worthwhile' since that's a subjective word. I have pointed out over and over again how many of the very things teachers unions fight for also benefit students.

I have given you so many facts - but you call them talking points and liberal rhetoric because you don't like them. Every single fact that I have given has been called that. In fact, now that I'm writing this...why am I even arguing anymore. Why am I arguing with people who won't accept facts. Goodbye.
 
Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

Catawba said:
We've been through this before. You are referring to a nationwide problem not one unique to Wisconsin. How do you suppose less funding will improve it?
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How many gazillions have we continually pumped into the nation's school systems and things don't get any better? Obviously, a lack of funding isn't the problem.


How does giving that funding in corporate tax breaks improve those minority population's reading and math scores?
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For the second time in this thread, corporate tax breaks have nothing to do with any of this. You have such a hard-on for private enterprise, that you fail to see the reality.
 
Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

j-mac said:
Translation: Pouts, and kicks something on the floor.


j-mac
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crushing public sector unions is a most useful strategy they are nothing more than organs of the democratic party
 
Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

theplaydrive said:
Nobody has crushed me with facts. Nobody has provided me with the apparent 30 year record of unions continuously preventing meaningful education form. I asked someone for a list of those reforms and explanations for why we should consider them 'worthwhile' since that's a subjective word. I have pointed out over and over again how many of the very things teachers unions fight for also benefit students.

I have given you so many facts - but you call them talking points and liberal rhetoric because you don't like them. Every single fact that I have given has been called that. In fact, now that I'm writing this...why am I even arguing anymore. Why am I arguing with people who won't accept facts. Goodbye.
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2/3's of Wisconsin 8th graders can't read at an 8th grade level. How have teachers unions helped things?
 
Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

theplaydrive said:
Like I said, as if every teacher has tenure.
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yup, every teacher who's made it thru probationary one and two

you really gotta do something dumb to be ousted before making permanent

cuz if they don't get you out in the first two years (actually before march 15 of year two), they're pretty much stuck with you

sorry
 
Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

apdst said:
Ain't that hillarious?
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I really don't think that liberals have any concept of personal income as apparently they believe it all belongs to the govt. thus allowing people to keep more of what they earn is a govt. expense.
 
Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

Conservative said:
Taxpayers don't fund tax breaks as tax breaks aren't an expense to the govt. It isn't the government's money first.
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The same faulty logic that has our National debt where it is today. If you decide to temporarily forgive a taxpayer his full share of taxes without providing an equal income source to replace it, then you are transferring that tax break to one class on the others. There are no free rides. You don't get something for nothing.

Then because the tax breaks were not funded (offset) by another funding source other services must be cut, ie education.
 
Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

These states are moving to limit public employees "right" to collective bargaining: Wisconsin, Ohio, Idaho, Iowa, Michigan, Indiana, New Hampshire, Kansas, Tennessee, Colorado, Nebraska, Nevada, Oklahoma, New Mexico, Washington, Alaska, and Arizona.

The greed of these public employee unions and the backlash against it may result in state after state passing right to work legislation which would cut the legs out from under the good unions that represent their membership fairly and do not make outrageous demands that cripple the economy. During the time the pipeline was being built in Alaska the Teamsters got so powerful and so grabby that other unions feared backlash from the state. It happened. A right to work law was passed and union workers lost many jobs. The work conditions for non-union workers is not as good and the pay certainly is not as good. If right to work legislation is passed throughout the country the quality of life for many people will suffer and the quality of the work done will suffer. One of the important functions of good labor unions is maintaining excellence in the workforce.
 
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Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

I understand you're a bit overwhelmed...but can you tell me what reforms teachers have fought for? As an outside to the system, I don't see that education has changed much. Asking others to tell you what reforms should be considered so that you can shoot them down isn't as effective as you showing us what reforms teachers have put in place.

In the private sector, when you want to reward someone for going above and beyond, there's a mechanism in place to do so. That is certainly not true in the public sector other than, perhaps, a glowing letter in one's file. And even then, if the person's seniority isn't there, the teachers' unions don't protect their above-and-beyond. Merit pay. Merit pay. Merit pay. Where is it? Why do unions continue to fight against it? Everywhere -- not just for teachers. The ladder system: how long ya' been there; what's yer degree. That just simply doesn't cut the mustard.

Not when this stat is out there:

Among the nation's 50 largest districts, the study finds, three graduate fewer than 40% from high school: Detroit (21.7%), Baltimore (38.5%) and New York City (38.9%).
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When unions -- or we, w/o unions, find a way to compensate teachers for results, believe me, those stats will improve. Are teachers even at the table in these discussions? Nope. It's against union rules.

USATODAY.com - Big-city schools struggle with graduation rates
 
Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

Catawba said:
The same faulty logic that has our National debt where it is today. If you decide to temporarily forgive a taxpayer his full share of taxes without providing an equal income source to replace it, then you are transferring that tax break to one class on the others. There are no free rides. You don't get something for nothing.

Then because the tax breaks were not funded (offset) by another funding source other services must be cut, ie education.
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full share of taxes? What the hell does that mean? how about the 47% that don't pay any Federal Income Taxes, is that their full share? You will never understand the concept and have been brainwashed but tax cuts don't have to be funded. IF an that is a BIG IF tax revenue is less than projected, stop the damn spending to meet the reduction in revenue. I am still waiting for an explanation as to why there is a Federal Dept. of Education and why my tax dollars should be spent in your school district? Your state funds education in your district and that is where it belongs. Keep buying the big govt. rhetoric. The reason we have a 14.3 trillion dollar debt today is because of too much liberalism like the Great Society and New Deal. Every liberal social program costs more than intended, does less than intended,and never solves a problem.
 
Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

theplaydrive said:
Nobody has crushed me with facts. Nobody has provided me with the apparent 30 year record of unions continuously preventing meaningful education form. I asked someone for a list of those reforms and explanations for why we should consider them 'worthwhile' since that's a subjective word. I have pointed out over and over again how many of the very things teachers unions fight for also benefit students.

I have given you so many facts - but you call them talking points and liberal rhetoric because you don't like them. Every single fact that I have given has been called that. In fact, now that I'm writing this...why am I even arguing anymore. Why am I arguing with people who won't accept facts. Goodbye.
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sorry, you were asked to provide one measely example of something the union supports that is good for the students, while not being good for the teachers union.

and the response - crickets. post something of substance and stop flapping your gums newbie.
 
Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

Marshabar said:
These states are moving to limit public employees "right" to collective bargaining: Wisconsin, Ohio, Idaho, Iowa, Michigan, Indiana, New Hampshire, Kansas, Tennessee, Colorado, Nebraska, Nevada, Oklahoma, New Mexico, Washington, Alaska, and Arizona.

The greed of these public employee unions and the backlash against it may result in state after state passing right to work legislation which would cut the legs out from under the good unions that represent their membership fairly and do not make outrageous demands that cripple the economy. During the time the pipeline was being built in Alaska the Teamsters got so powerful and so grabby that other unions feared backlash from the state. It happened. A right to work law was passed and union workers lost many jobs. The work conditions for non-union workers is not as good and the pay certainly is not as good. If right to work legislation is passed throughout the country the quality of life for many people will suffer and the quality of the work done will suffer. One of the important functions of good labor unions is maintaining excellence in the workforce.
Click to expand...

Yeah right, it those rich teachers, firefighters and cops that are bringing the country down, its not the millionaires, who since 2003 have been getting more in annual tax breaks ($91,000 on average) than a teacher makes in a year, but sure, for sure go after the teachers and give up and see how much better your life gets.
 
Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

meanwhile, ap reports yesterday that obama's ed secty arne duncan declares EIGHTY TWO PERCENT of american schools may be FAILING

The Associated Press: 82 percent of US schools may be labeled 'failing'

duncan, by the way, always was a bizarre choice as secty

as ceo of chicago public schools he couldn't get the kids to and from class without shooting each other

april, 2008:

Public school students in Chicago aren't as worried about making the grade as they are about making it home alive, CBS News correspondent Cynthia Bowers reports.

"You can't go nowhere without being shot," said Juston Gant. "It's crazy."

Since September, 24 students have been murdered, most of them shot.

Last school year 34 students were killed. That's 58 deaths over what amounts to a 17-month period. And that makes an average of one child getting murdered every eight days.
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Shock Over Chicago Student Gun Deaths - CBS Evening News - CBS News

sorry
 
Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

Catawba said:
Yeah right, it those rich teachers, firefighters and cops that are bringing the country down, its not the millionaires, who since 2003 have been getting more in annual tax breaks ($91,000 on average) than a teacher makes in a year, but sure, for sure go after the teachers and give up and see how much better your life gets.
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How many teachers do you know that went into the business NOT knowing how much the pay was? You seem to know what everyone else needs for a salary. Where did you get your expertise?
 
Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

Catawba said:
Yeah right, it those rich teachers, firefighters and cops that are bringing the country down, its not the millionaires, who since 2003 have been getting more in annual tax breaks ($91,000 on average) than a teacher makes in a year, but sure, for sure go after the teachers and give up and see how much better your life gets.
Click to expand...

Oh, stop it.
 
Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

Conservative said:
I really don't think that liberals have any concept of personal income as apparently they believe it all belongs to the govt. thus allowing people to keep more of what they earn is a govt. expense.
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They hate anyone that isn't on the government dole.
 
Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

Lionel Hutz said:
I've specifically heard Walker say that with this bill, no one will be forced to pay dues which will save them 500-1,000 dollars each year. They can also choose to change heath care insurance and not be forced on the expensive one chosen by the Union.


I have heard the Wisconsin Republicans and others use this as a way of defending the measures that they are taking. But if the union members lose salary or other benefits greater than this $500-$1000, how does this benefit the union members?
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they're not losing anything that the unions hadn't already agreed to cut - namely that they pay a pitifully small percentage towards their pension and healthcare.
 
Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

Catawba said:
Yeah right, it those rich teachers, firefighters and cops that are bringing the country down, its not the millionaires, who since 2003 have been getting more in annual tax breaks ($91,000 on average) than a teacher makes in a year, but sure, for sure go after the teachers and give up and see how much better your life gets.
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i don't know about bringing the country down (i would suspect that there the culprit is generally our spending and specifically our debt).

but what's undoubtably bringing local and state governments down is indeed overgenerous union contracts negotiated in Times Of Endless Plenty That Everyone Assumed Would Magically Never End.


except now they have ended, and while everyone else is taking pay cuts and benefit cuts and furloughs.... public sector unions apparently think that their gold-plated deals are sacrosant.
 
Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

cpwill said:
they're not losing anything that the unions hadn't already agreed to cut - namely that they pay a pitifully small percentage towards their pension and healthcare.
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Absolutely! And now that Collective Barganing is off the table we will see if all that talk of unions already agreeing to the financial aspects were genuine or just a slimy tactic.


j-mac
 
Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

CaptainCourtesy said:
Moderator's Warning:
Knock it off, hazlnut, or you'll be gone from the thread... at the very least.
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Oh please oh please make me a mod for five minutes. :mrgreen:
 
Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

Conservative said:
I really don't think that liberals have any concept of personal income as apparently they believe it all belongs to the govt. thus allowing people to keep more of what they earn is a govt. expense.
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You have got to be kidding me.
 
Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

iamitter said:
You have got to be kidding me.
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Have you paid any attention to Catawba's posts along with others here regarding tax cuts being an expense and having to be paid for? Maybe I should have said some liberals or even many liberals vs. the blanket statement of liberals.
 
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