Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights withou

Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

Conservative said:

Catawba, get over it, elections have consequences and your side lost. Wisconsin has rescinded some collective bargaining rights but not those regarding salary.

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It doesn't look like its over to me ~

Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

Kandahar said:

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You must have missed the entirety of the text you just responded to, which explained EXACTLY how the teachers' unions benefit.

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I see that you moved the goal posts from teachers to teacher's union.

Right. There's no need to look at the actual data, because it's clear to you. You know it in your heart. An excellent debate tactic. Carry on sir. :roll:

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You provide a right wing oped and expect serous consideration? Get real!

Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

Kandahar said:

After Adrian Fenty lost his mayoral reelection bid here in the District, and Michelle Rhee was ousted as chancellor of the DC schools, I was worried that education reform would grind to a halt nationwide. I'm very pleasantly surprised to see Governor Walker's success, and I hope it's replicated in other states.

Today, Cory Booker, the mayor of Newark, fired a shot across the bow of teacher tenure. Perhaps reforming tenure can be the next target of the reformists, after the unions are curtailed.
Teacher tenure is poisonous: Cory Booker, mayor of Newark, says it's time to put performance first

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There are many articles that argue the opposite.

Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

Kandahar said:

Smaller class size means hiring more teachers, which means more teachers paying union dues.
Increased instruction time means higher compensation, which gives the union more leverage to increase union dues.

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Greater class sizes mean more work for the teachers who already have their hands full. It also decreases the amount of special help that can be given to students. Also, many teachers have to use out of pocket money for equipment. It seems to me you don't care much about the students; you care about the union.

Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

Catawba said:

It doesn't look like its over to me ~

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Right, how many people in Wisconsin? How many showed up to protest? You obviously are easily swayed by a picture while ignoring the bigger picture. We all know you are pro public union, get over it, you lost.

Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

Conservative said:

Right, how many people in Wisconsin? How many showed up to protest? You obviously are easily swayed by a picture while ignoring the bigger picture. We all know you are pro public union, get over it, you lost.

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So the day may never come again when those rights can be restored...

NEVER!

EVER! AGAIN!

No change in governance can ever change this! It's permanent?

Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

Conservative said:

Right, how many people in Wisconsin? How many showed up to protest? You obviously are easily swayed by a picture while ignoring the bigger picture. We all know you are pro public union, get over it, you lost.

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Americans do not give in so easily to fascism as you may think. I would not count us out just yet.

Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

Jetboogieman said:

So the day may never come again when those rights can be restored...

NEVER!

EVER! AGAIN!

No change in governance can ever change this! It's permanent?

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All depends on the results, if the Wisconsin budget gap is closed, the state becomes more business friendly thus creating more jobs then it will never come back and rightly so. There is no place for collective bargaining for public unions just like with the Federal public employees.

Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

Catawba said:

Americans do not give in so easily to fascism as you may think. I would not count us out just yet.

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you clearly don't understand the term

Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

ARealConservative said:

you clearly don't understand the term

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Getting rid of unions has been the first step in preparation for fascist control in every instance in history that I've read about.

Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

Catawba said:

Getting rid of unions has been the first step in preparation for fascist control in every instance in history that I've read about.

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I don't think the governor of Wisconsin is in any position to force a Fascist takeover... and fascist takeover of what exactly? The State? The Country? His Living Room?

Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

Catawba said:

It starts with rigorous evaluations -- the kind that many AFT unions are negotiating with their school district counterparts through the collective bargaining process. The next step is a time-limited, but real, improvement and support plan for teachers who need help -- also developed and implemented through labor-management cooperation. The final step is a hearing or adjudication process. All of this ensures that, within a finite period of time, teachers will be evaluated regularly based on agreed-upon standards of what they should know and be able to do, will receive help if they fall short of those standards, and will be removed from the classroom fairly and efficiently if they simply aren't cutting it.

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that's exactly what goes on in every school district i've worked for the last 27 years, except for the fair and efficient removals

well, come to think of it, the half dozen removals i've witnessed have after all been bend-over-backwards fair

to the teacher

but certainly not efficient

Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

Catawba said:

Americans do not give in so easily to fascism as you may think. I would not count us out just yet.

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I think this power grab by Gov. Walker, would bomerang and bite him and the Winconsin senators in the ass. There are recall efforts and three of them have a good chance of passing. There are Republicans who do not agree with tactics of the Governor.

Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

Catawba said:

Americans do not give in so easily to fascism as you may think. I would not count us out just yet.

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Wisconsin has a labor force of 2.5 million with 15% belonging to a union or about 400k. Don't think that the 2.1 million others are excited about the benefits that they are funding for these people.

Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

pbrauer said:

I think this power grab by Gov. Walker, would bomerang and bite him and the Winconsin senators in the ass. There are recall efforts and three of them have a good chance of passing. There are Republicans who do not agree with tactics of the Governor.

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As I just reported Wisconsin has a labor force of 2.5 million with 400,000 union employees that the taxpayers of Wisconsin are funding. Don't think that the 2.1 million non union employees have a lot of empathy for these 400,000 union employees. The taxpayers of Wisconsin won this one.

http://www.bls.gov/news.release/union2.t05.htm

Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

Jetboogieman said:

I don't think the governor of Wisconsin is in any position to force a Fascist takeover... and fascist takeover of what exactly? The State? The Country? His Living Room?

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Now Jet, I did not say Fascist takeover, now did I? However, I am not also oblivious to Citizens Unitied decision together with a nationwide effort to bust collecive bargaining provides exactly the kind of conditions necessary for greater corporate control of our political system, which would be more fascist in nature.

Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

Catawba said:

Now Jet, I did not say Fascist takeover, now did I? However, I am not also oblivious to Citizens Unitied decision together with a nationwide effort to bust collecive bargaining provides exactly the kind of conditions necessary for greater corporate control of our political system, which would be more fascist in nature.

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That would be true if it spoke to Private Unions, which in this case it isn't especially in the case of the Wisconsin governor...

Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

Catawba said:

Americans do not give in so easily to fascism as you may think.

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fascism---LOL!

what a political loser that is

a hundred miles to the LEFT of barack hussein obama

talk about a splinter

more like a crumb

party on, petrograd

Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

Jetboogieman said:

That would be true if it spoke to Private Unions, which in this case it isn't especially in the case of the Wisconsin governor...

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Public and private unions work together to provide a balance against corporate interest. By removing the public unions, you are weakening the private union's ability to provide that balance against corporate interest. Citizens United also give corporate interests greater opportunity to overcome that balance.

It seems to me to be the wrong time to be giving up citizen's rights.

Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

Catawba said:

Public and private unions work together to provide a balance against corporate interest. By removing the public unions, you are weakening the private union's ability to provide that balance against corporate interest. Citizens United also give corporate interests greater opportunity to overcome that balance.

It seems to me to be the wrong time to be giving up citizen's rights.

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And I agree whole heartedly, but to say we're on the road to Fascism is a bit of a stretch in my opinon and hyperbolic. People still have the right, to have those rights restored through popular vote and always will.

Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

theplaydrive said:

Whatever you've experienced in two years when Americans were finally guaranteed a fair shot at healthcare will be nothing compared to what I experienced for 8 years under an incompetent president who threw away my tax dollars on fruitless ventures.

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Right, when you get a real job let us all know for what I see here are liberal talking points of someone who buys what they are told but only from the left. Wonder what it is about the liberal ideology that creates such loyalty. I suggest you educate yourself by getting the actual Bush facts from bls.gov, bea.gov, and the U.S. Treasury Dept. I guarantee you that you won't see numbers like we have today from the Obama Administration so I can see why you support Unions and this Administration.

Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

Kane said:

How many times are people going to fall for the Elites and their divide and conquer tactics like this union issue?

Can you see its one in a long laundry list of tactics to get Americans fighting among themselves, while the rich bankers rape you?

Becks slander of Ron Paul supporters as "nutty" and Beck's slander of MLK and liberal activists calling them "Marxists" right out of the 50's Red Scare, divide the working class handbook.

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Kane said:

The working class is not the enemy.

The Elites and the government, working in collusion, to deregulate big business, in fact, torpedoed our economy.

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Not fascism?

Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

meanwhile our STATES are dying

NOW

it's mostly comprised of two things---pensions and medicaid

you've got the unions of wisconsin EAGER to CUT their bennies and UP their pay-ins

you've got the gubs of deep blue new york and california, the mayors of massachusetts, all saying the same thing---CUT

you've got new jersey, as blue as it gets

ohio, illinois, michigan---the belly of the swing electorate

everywhere everyone is SLASHING

public employees are SCAPEGOATED---not a good place to be, politically (hello)

how we got here?

that's a big part of it

mom and pop know, and they resent it

two point five tril of unfunded public TRUST in the shape of public pensions alone

on top of the two point seven tril of bernanke pump, qe, obligated into pure undiversified junk

the deficit, the president punting, his budget released last month brazenly INCREASING borrowing by a whopping thirty percent

the stimulus, which obscene s-word the party in power can no longer pronounce, another near trillion

obamacare levies more than three quarters of a tril in new taxes

the gao found last week that another full half trillion is wasted, utterly vanished, in duplicative programs, never reviewed---how much of it ISN'T political payback at some level?

the muni market is collapsed, states are not gonna be able to refi

property taxes are thru the basement of our broken down housing

mom and pop perceive---govt, govt, govt

and it just aint PAYIN

big picture, baby

if the anti union movement is such a loser, so unpopular, why are cuomo and moonbeam (and coming along very soon, rahm in chicago) going so extreme

why is michael moore in madison while obama searches for his comfortable shoes

it appears THEY don't believe rasmussen (founder of espn, by the way)

stay up

Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

Jetboogieman said:

And I agree whole heartedly, but to say we're on the road to Fascism is a bit of a stretch in my opinon and hyperbolic. People still have the right, to have those rights restored through popular vote and always will.

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I hope you are right. Perhaps it is my German ancestery that makes me nervous when corporations are in the position of having greater influence over the elections that you count on to protect you. My ancestors found that was a mistake in the end (but by then, it was too late).

Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

Catawba said:

I see that you moved the goal posts from teachers to teacher's union.

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Wrong. My original request was:

Kandahar said:

Name one worthwhile education reform that teachers' unions have supported in the last 30 years, aside from those that directly benefited the teachers' union itself.

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Nice try though!

Catawba said:

You provide a right wing oped and expect serous consideration? Get real!

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He cites raw data from the NAEP website, which is a nonpartisan arm of the federal government. Like I said, don't take his word for it, look at the data yourself. The fact that you continue to attack the messenger - who didn't do anything other than call attention to statistics produced by the federal government itself - shows that you don't have much of an argument to stand on. Especially when it's followed by the statement that you don't NEED to look at the data because you already know the truth. :roll: