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Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights withou

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Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

Im celebrating here. I opened a can of tuna for my 2 kick-ass cats and then broke out the bag of birdseed for the animals outside. Then for myself I took a natural laxative. Ive been blocked up :neutral:
 
Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

iamitter said:
People will say they are against deficits - they are also against cutting pretty much every program except foreign aid.
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:D and now, cowboy poets.

but this is a good point; we'll see how much steam the Tea Party loses in it's cutting battle when it becomes obvious how much of the budget is mandatory entitlement spending.

The tea party isn't going to be around for very long if these are the kinds of stunts its going to pull.
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what, fixing state and local budgets? that's the perfect place for a grassroots up-from-below organization to be focusing.
 
Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

cpwill said:
it seems you can get the majority of Americans to support about anything so long as you slap the word "rights" onto a phrase that might not be crystal clear its' definition to most poll respondents.
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The truth in this statement is overwhelming.
The way questions are phrased in polls can influence it, too.
Nate silver took issue with the rasmussen poll for their phrasing: Rasmussen Poll on Wisconsin Dispute May Be Biased - NYTimes.com
 
Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

cpwill said:
:D and now, cowboy poets.

but this is a good point; we'll see how much steam the Tea Party loses in it's cutting battle when it becomes obvious how much of the budget is mandatory entitlement spending.



what, fixing state and local budgets? that's the perfect place for a grassroots up-from-below organization to be focusing.
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To your second point, yes, it is. In this way, however? Not at all. This issue is being blown to national scale. Even if the poll you showed earlier was representative of actual changing ideals rather than the meaning of the words, this is not in any way what the average american would want.
Most people remain in the moderate portion of the scale and won't like the extremist behavior currently being shown.
Regardless of what implications this bill has on finances, what do you think the average person will think when they hear that these guys stripped the bill of all "financial aspects" and passed a bill purely to end collective bargaining rights? they won't see it as being responsible, they'll see it as ending rights, even if those rights never existed in the first place.
 
Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

danarhea said:
Just as the Koch brothers have their agenda labeled rights in a poll as well. Right? :mrgreen:
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:D what, are you against freedom of speech? :D
 
Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

iamitter said:
To your second point, yes, it is. In this way, however? Not at all. This issue is being blown to national scale.
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when it is blown to a national scale inevitably it is done so by the union opposition. Everybody has heard about Chris Christie taking on the unions; the union's response to him made him a national figure. where the matter simply goes up for debate, everyone has their say, arguments are flung around, and then a deal get's hammered out, nobody hears about it.

Even if the poll you showed earlier was representative of actual changing ideals rather than the meaning of the words, this is not in any way what the average american would want.
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:shrug: i would of course disagree :) what if you were to simply send out a poll asking if it would be okay to increase teacher compensation in line with inflation, with the voters being asked their permission before they are put on the hook for above and beyond that? if you were to simply ask Americans if workers should be forced to join unions and pay dues in order to teach? that's the substance of what this "collective bargaining rights limitation" is about.

Most people remain in the moderate portion of the scale and won't like the extremist behavior currently being shown.
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Wisconsin just became like 26 other states that limit collective bargaining. Wisconsins' employees retain broader ability to collectively bargain than federal employees. that's hardly extremist.
 
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Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

danarhea said:
I wonder what the response from some is going to be for your post?.....

"That's because you are a damn Leebrul that hates America."

LOL. :mrgreen:
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Well now. I'm no Liberal by any stretch. I usually vote conservative at the polls. That said, this GOP platform greatly reminds me of the Soviet Union with its Central Planning Commission and phony pseudo-unions orchestrated by the state.

My family fled the USSR. I just can't in good conscience support an American political party that attempts to Sovietize the collective bargaining process.
 
Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

.....what???
 
Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

Tashah said:
Well now. I'm no Liberal by any stretch. I usually vote conservative at the polls. That said, this GOP platform greatly reminds me of the Soviet Union with its Central Planning Commission and phony pseudo-unions orchestrated by the state.

My family fled the USSR. I just can't in good conscience support an American political party that attempts to Sovietize the collective bargaining process.
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Opposing collective bargaining is extremely pro-capitalism. As far as I'm concerned, capitalism is about competition, not about a total lack of government intervention. Anyone who attempts to monopolize an industry - whether it's steel, web browsers, or labor - deserves to have the government break them apart. Unions are no different than any other kind of trust or monopoly, and should be treated as such. Public unions are the worst of all because they steal from the public, rather than just the consumers.

As Adam Smith himself noted, "People of the same trade seldom meet together, even for merriment and diversion, but the conversation ends in a conspiracy against the public, or in some contrivance to raise prices." Unions most certainly do exactly that.
 
Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

Amazed said:
Let's make a wager Hay.....Walker is recalled I leave the website...he isn't...you do?
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Would ritualistic seppuku be more dramatic?
 
Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

cpwill said:
the ability of a private group such as a union to overturn representative democracy at will is not a right.
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When have they "overturn representative democracy at will"?

The rights to assemble and petition is one of the fundamental right of democracy and this governor says, no you can't assemble as a group and bargain with us on anything other than wages.

This on the heel of a supreme court that grants "personhoood" to corporations because it is made up of individuals (and unions aren't made up of individuals?). The balance is going further and further in the favours of the likes of the Koch Brothers who have a lot of money to advance their interests.
 
Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

nonpareil said:
When have they "overturn representative democracy at will"?

The rights to assemble and petition is one of the fundamental right of democracy and this governor says, no you can't assemble as a group and bargain with us on anything other than wages.

This on the heel of a supreme court that grants "personhoood" to corporations because it is made up of individuals (and unions aren't made up of individuals?). The balance is going further and further in the favours of the likes of the Koch Brothers who have a lot of money to advance their interests.
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You are wise to connect the dots. This entire Wisconsin event is only a small part of a right wing effort to repeal much of the progressive reforms of the 20th century. They want to take us back to the Gilded Age before the days of Teddy Roosevelt and Lafollette and later the New Deal and Great Society.
 
Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

It seems like a lot of people here are confused as to what collective bargaining is.

A big part of it is the ability to keep employers to stick to agreements made with employees.

It's not a process that forces employers to do whatever employees want of them, simply assures that employees are able to negotiate with their bosses, and that any agreements made stay in practice.
 
Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

nonpareil said:
The rights to assemble and petition is one of the fundamental right of democracy and this governor says, no you can't assemble as a group and bargain with us on anything other than wages.
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They can assemble and petition all they like, but that doesn't give them the right to collude to fix prices any moreso than any other trust. A union is not merely a lobbying group for higher wages; they actually expect a seat at the negotiating table, they employ strongarm tactics to get it, and workers have no choice but to give them money. If workers want to join a special interest group, of their own volition, that seeks to increase public wages at the expense of taxpayers by electing certain candidates to political office, they are free to do so. But let's not pretend that's what a union is.
 
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Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

Kandahar said:
They can assemble and petition all they like, but that doesn't give them the right to collude to fix prices any moreso than any other trust. A union is not merely a lobbying group for higher wages; they actually expect a seat at the negotiating table, they employ strongarm tactics to get it, and workers have no choice but to give them money. If workers want to join a special interest group, of their own volition, that seeks to increase public wages at the expense of taxpayers, they are free to do so. But let's not pretend that's what a union is.
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Again, I'm pretty sure you don' know what a union is.
 
Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

Kandahar said:
Opposing collective bargaining is extremely pro-capitalism. As far as I'm concerned, capitalism is about competition, not about a total lack of government intervention. Anyone who attempts to monopolize an industry - whether it's steel, web browsers, or labor - deserves to have the government break them apart. Unions are no different than any other kind of trust or monopoly, and should be treated as such. Public unions are the worst of all because they steal from the public, rather than just the consumers.

As Adam Smith himself noted, "People of the same trade seldom meet together, even for merriment and diversion, but the conversation ends in a conspiracy against the public, or in some contrivance to raise prices." Unions most certainly do exactly that.
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Adam Smith was referring to collusion, in prices as well as wages. He also said:

"It is not, however, difficult to foresee which of the two parties must, upon all ordinary occasions, have the advantage in the dispute, and force the other into a compliance with their terms. The masters, being fewer in number, can combine much more easily; and the law, besides, authorizes, or at least does not prohibit their combinations, while it prohibits those of the workmen. We have no acts of parliament against combining to lower the price of work; but many against combining to raise it. In all such disputes the masters can hold out much longer. A landlord, a farmer, a master manufacturer, a merchant, though they did not employ a single workman, could generally live a year or two upon the stocks which they have already acquired. Many workmen could not subsist a week, few could subsist a month, and scarce any a year without employment. In the long run the workman may be as necessary to his master as his master is to him; but the necessity is not so immediate."



If Unions are collusions, then all Unions should be made illegal. That will take us back to Adam Smith's time.
 
Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

nonpareil said:
Adam Smith was referring to collusion, in prices as well as wages. He also said:
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I'm aware of that. My point is that wages ARE a price, and unions are therefore no different than, say, a steel trust.

nonpareil said:
"It is not, however, difficult to foresee which of the two parties must, upon all ordinary occasions, have the advantage in the dispute, and force the other into a compliance with their terms. The masters, being fewer in number, can combine much more easily; and the law, besides, authorizes, or at least does not prohibit their combinations, while it prohibits those of the workmen. We have no acts of parliament against combining to lower the price of work; but many against combining to raise it. In all such disputes the masters can hold out much longer. A landlord, a farmer, a master manufacturer, a merchant, though they did not employ a single workman, could generally live a year or two upon the stocks which they have already acquired. Many workmen could not subsist a week, few could subsist a month, and scarce any a year without employment. In the long run the workman may be as necessary to his master as his master is to him; but the necessity is not so immediate."
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Some of those things were specific to Smith's time, and others don't apply to the public sector at all. For example:

- The "masters" in this case are NOT few in number. The "masters" of public sector jobs are the people.
- It is not true in the United States in 2011 that there are no laws against combining to lower the price of work, but many against combining to raise it. In fact, it's far easier to raise wages than to lower them.
- The "master" cannot hold out longer because the "master" doesn't have any stock that they've already acquired. In fact, the "master" is drowning in debt, and relies on those workers to provide services to society.

nonpareil said:
If Unions are collusions, then all Unions should be made illegal. That will take us back to Adam Smith's time.
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I wouldn't be opposed to limiting unions. But my immediate concern is with public unions, and even more specifically, the teachers' unions.
 
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Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

Kandahar said:
They can assemble and petition all they like, but that doesn't give them the right to collude to fix prices any moreso than any other trust. A union is not merely a lobbying group for higher wages; they actually expect a seat at the negotiating table, they employ strongarm tactics to get it, and workers have no choice but to give them money. If workers want to join a special interest group, of their own volition, that seeks to increase public wages at the expense of taxpayers by electing certain candidates to political office, they are free to do so. But let's not pretend that's what a union is.
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What is a Union then?

Since Union negotiators is the representatives of the union members, then they must have a place at the negotiating table for the negotiation to take place.

If you see group bargaining by workers as illegal business collusion. Then all Unions, not just public workers union, should be made illegal. No one want them to be given more rights than any other "trust".
 
Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

Kandahar said:
I'm aware of that. My point is that wages ARE a price, and unions are therefore no different than, say, a steel trust.



Some of those things were specific to Smith's time, and others don't apply to the public sector at all. For example:

- The "masters" in this case are NOT few in number. The "masters" of public sector jobs are the people.
- It is not true in the United States in 2011 that there are no laws against combining to lower the price of work, but many against combining to raise it. In fact, it's far easier to raise wages than to lower them.
- The "master" cannot hold out longer because the "master" doesn't have any stock that they've already acquired. In fact, the "master" is drowning in debt, and relies on those workers to provide services to society.



I wouldn't be opposed to limiting unions. But my immediate concern is with public unions, and even more specifically, the teachers' unions.
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Why "limit", illegal business collusion should be eliminated, don't you think?

And I have noted that the world is different from Adam Smith's time, that's why I said your position will take us back closer to his time.
 
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Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

nonpareil said:
Why "limit", illegal business collusion should be eliminated, don't you think?
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Sure, but private sector unions simply aren't my immediate concern, and frankly they don't have very much power anymore anyway. I'll be happy with steps taken to reduce the influence of public unions. Particularly the teachers' union, which is even worse than your average union since they not only inflate the budgets but play an actively harmful role in our education system.

nonpareil said:
And I have noted that the world is different from Adam Smith's time, that's why I said your position will take us closer to his time.
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I suppose, if you view all public policy through the prism of whether it makes us more or less like some other society/era. I tend to view it through the prism of whether or not it's actually beneficial in THIS society and this era.
 
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Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

TheBook said:
It seems like a lot of people here are confused as to what collective bargaining is.

A big part of it is the ability to keep employers to stick to agreements made with employees.

It's not a process that forces employers to do whatever employees want of them, simply assures that employees are able to negotiate with their bosses, and that any agreements made stay in practice.
Click to expand...

Of course not.........now put the money in the bag.....or were gonna shut you down........
.
.
.
.
 
Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

Kandahar said:
Sure, but private sector unions simply aren't my immediate concern, and frankly they don't have very much power anymore anyway. I'll be happy with steps taken to reduce the influence of public unions. Particularly the teachers' union, which is even worse than your average union since they not only inflate the budgets but play an actively harmful role in our education system.
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From your strong language against them using "collusion" as a reason against them, one would think you would be more passionate against "collusion" no matter where it is.


I suppose, if you view all public policy through the prism of whether it makes us more or less like some other society/era. I tend to view it through the prism of whether or not it's actually beneficial in THIS society and this era.
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Saying that it will take it us back to Adam Smith's time is "public policy through the prism of whether it makes us more or less like some other society/era"? Do you do make assumptions, don't you?
 
Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

nonpareil said:
From your strong language against them using "collusion" as a reason against them, one would think you would be more passionate against "collusion" no matter where it is.
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Well, I'm a pragmatist. I have no problem with policies that advance society's well-being, even if they aren't the most all-encompassing policies I can imagine. Better to pick one's battles.

nonpareil said:
Saying that it will take it us back to Adam Smith's time is "public policy through the prism of whether it makes us more or less like some other society/era"? Do you do make assumptions, don't you?
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Except I didn't view it through that prism, you did. You're the one who keeps referring to it bringing us back to Adam Smith's time. This line of thinking is essentially "300 years ago they didn't have Policy X, and now they do. Therefore repealing Policy X will cause society to regress 300 years." This, of course, is wholly illogical, as substituting any modern policy with which YOU disagree will quickly demonstrate.
 
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Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

cpwill said:
when it is blown to a national scale inevitably it is done so by the union opposition. Everybody has heard about Chris Christie taking on the unions; the union's response to him made him a national figure. where the matter simply goes up for debate, everyone has their say, arguments are flung around, and then a deal get's hammered out, nobody hears about it.



:shrug: i would of course disagree :) what if you were to simply send out a poll asking if it would be okay to increase teacher compensation in line with inflation, with the voters being asked their permission before they are put on the hook for above and beyond that? if you were to simply ask Americans if workers should be forced to join unions and pay dues in order to teach? that's the substance of what this "collective bargaining rights limitation" is about.



Wisconsin just became like 26 other states that limit collective bargaining. Wisconsins' employees retain broader ability to collectively bargain than federal employees. that's hardly extremist.
Click to expand...


Of course you would disagree, there is a poll sent out it's called a contract. The employees represented by their union reps have the right by vote to accept or reject a contract, the employer representing the public is in no way obligated to sign a contract that is not in the best interest of the people they were elected to serve. Both sides are represented

The polls show that the people of Wisconsin

Wisconsin Poll: Support for Budget Cutting, Not for Weakening Collective Bargaining Rights - Rasmussen Reports™

" A new Rasmussen Reports telephone survey of Wisconsin voters shows that just 39% favor weakening collective bargaining rights and 52% are opposed. At the same time, 44% support a 10% pay cut for all state workers. Thirty-eight percent (38%) are opposed. That’s partly because 27% of Wisconsin voters believe state workers are paid too much and 16% believe they are paid too little. Forty-nine percent (49%) believe the pay of state workers is about right."

Again the voters are asked permission, like the union members they are asked to ratify a new contract for public employees.
 
Re: Wisconsin Republicans vote to strip public worker collective bargaining rights wi

Wow, what the f*ck?
 
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