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Postal Service on path to be broke by October

danarhea said:
10) Finally back to junk mail - Think of all the trees that will be saved if the US Postal service dies.
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Wood pulp is a crop just like corn. The trees are planted just to make paper, like Christmas trees are a crop grown special for that purpose. They are renewable. Tree farming employs thousands of people. Eliminate paper and the trees would never be planted so none would be saved and lumber jack jobs would be lost. Not to mention the paper manufacturers, printers, designers, artists, ink makers, printing equipment manufacturers, and the envelope stuffers. Also the vehicle builders, post office builders, sorting machine builders, maintenance people, would be out of work.

Taxes from these people would be lost. I don't know how many people are employed directly and indirectly by having a postal service but that number must be in the millions. I would guess taxes from all those people would make up for the loss incurred by the post office.

Eliminating the post office would cost millions of private jobs outside of the government employees.
 
USA_1 said:
Eliminating the post office would cost millions of private jobs outside of the government employees.
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And it would lead to millions more private jobs as entrepreneurs filled the letter-carrier niche that was taken up by the bloated bureaucracy of the post office.
 
danarhea said:
10) Finally back to junk mail - Think of all the trees that will be saved if the US Postal service dies.
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Think of all the lumberjacks out of work! You cold hearted bastard.
 
Guy Incognito said:
And it would lead to millions more private jobs as entrepreneurs filled the letter-carrier niche that was taken up by the bloated bureaucracy of the post office.
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Is the emphasis on private or jobs? Cause if it's just on jobs, nothing beats bloated bureaucracy. They have a position for every conceivable action. Hell, they have 3 positions for every conceivable action.
 
Ikari said:
Is the emphasis on private or jobs? Cause if it's just on jobs, nothing beats bloated bureaucracy. They have a position for every conceivable action. Hell, they have 3 positions for every conceivable action.
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These are not competing goals, they are synergistic. Striking down a bloated bureaucracy will lead to more jobs in the private sector as the need gets fills. Government jobs are not the kind of jobs we want, anyway, we want private sector jobs for real economic growth.
 
I can hardly await the dream of single payer healthcare to go into full effect. I have a thrill running up my leg...

oh wait, maybe it's the shingles.
 
Guy Incognito said:
These are not competing goals, they are synergistic. Striking down a bloated bureaucracy will lead to more jobs in the private sector as the need gets fills. Government jobs are not the kind of jobs we want, anyway, we want private sector jobs for real economic growth.
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We do want a very large number of private sector jobs. That's not saying that we don't want government jobs. There are very very important government jobs from military service to scientific research to...I suppose politicians, damn their back souls. In general I'll opt for private over government; but not always. And this is one of those "not always". I'd rather the USPS exist. It can be changed, it can adapt to the evolving technology and needs of the people. But it needs to exist, it's a guaranteed postal service that everyone has access to. You can't do that in private. Mostly companies are stable and are fine, but there's no guarantee on that.

There's probably a significant amount of restructuring they can do to try to slim down and be more efficient. But it's a government agency, it doesn't need to turn a profit in the end. It only has to exist.
 
Ikari said:
We do want a very large number of private sector jobs. That's not saying that we don't want government jobs.
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You're getting distracted. This isn't about jobs, it's about spending. What we don't want is government jobs we cannot afford. Who is that benefitting?
 
Guy Incognito said:
You're getting distracted. This isn't about jobs, it's about spending. What we don't want is government jobs we cannot afford. Who is that benefitting?
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It depends on what you're getting. In the case of the USPS, it benefits everyone.
 
Guy Incognito said:
You're getting distracted. This isn't about jobs, it's about spending. What we don't want is government jobs we cannot afford. Who is that benefitting?
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The taxes those private sector jobs create offset the loss of the post office. The post office creates private sector jobs that generate revenue that pays for the post office. The post office helps generate more revenue. If those jobs are eliminated tax revenue decline increasing the deficit. Eliminate the post office and millions of private sector jobs will be lost and so will that tax revenue. The post office generates income through taxes not just through postage
 
Guy Incognito said:
And it would lead to millions more private jobs as entrepreneurs filled the letter-carrier niche that was taken up by the bloated bureaucracy of the post office.
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The letter carrier niche would disappear. Most people here say it isn't even needed anymore. No private enterprise could do what the post office does.
 
Ikari said:
It depends on what you're getting. In the case of the USPS, it benefits everyone.
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It's like libraries, police, firemen, it'a service not a money making business.
 
USA_1 said:
The letter carrier niche would disappear. Most people here say it isn't even needed anymore. No private enterprise could do what the post office does.
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If no private enterprise can offer it at the current rate, then they will charge more. Just because you can't figure it out doesn't mean that there is no free market solution.
 
Ikari said:
It depends on what you're getting. In the case of the USPS, it benefits everyone.
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No, in the case of the post office everyone loses, because the public value it creates is outweighed by the public drain it creates as evidenced by the fact that it's going broke. If the government could make some money on the post office that would be one thing, but maintaining it at a loss is just stupid.
 
Guy Incognito said:
No, in the case of the post office everyone loses, because the public value it creates is outweighed by the public drain it creates as evidenced by the fact that it's going broke. If the government could make some money on the post office that would be one thing, but maintaining it at a loss is just stupid.
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Not really. The post office generates billions in the private sector which results in billions more in tax revenue.
When the post office loses a billion yet generates two billion more in tax revenue from the private sector it is good for the economy and the country. We waste more in the military in a week than the post office loses in a year.
 
Guy Incognito said:
No, in the case of the post office everyone loses, because the public value it creates is outweighed by the public drain it creates as evidenced by the fact that it's going broke. If the government could make some money on the post office that would be one thing, but maintaining it at a loss is just stupid.
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No it's not. Why is it that so many people think that government should be a business. Government should not be a business, government should be a government. We have the two for a reason. The Post Office provides a service, a service which must be guaranteed. The government doesn't jack rates by large amounts, but a private company can if demand goes up. The government is long term stable, guaranteed to be here 20 years from now, a private company is not. Mail and mail services are exceedingly important and it is necessary that there always be something there to handle it. That's where the USPS comes in. It is free from the constraints of the free market, it doesn't have to make money since it's part of government. It can be guaranteed and ensured to be available to everybody. While there are a lot of things which can be done wirelessly, not everyone has the internet yet and the internet is not a public utility. As such, there has to be something based from the government to ensure uninterrupted service.

We all win with the USPS and it is necessary. It does not have to make money, it has to exist.
 
Guy Incognito said:
If no private enterprise can offer it at the current rate, then they will charge more. Just because you can't figure it out doesn't mean that there is no free market solution.
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They will charge more and go out of business. Could the free market supply us with roads and bridges? With police and firefighters? With defense? Somethings can only be done by government. That's why the founding fathers created the postal service.
Not to say it could not do a hell of a lot better job and be more cost effective. We have to fix the postal system, not privatize it or abolish it.
 
USA_1 said:
Not really. The post office generates billions in the private sector which results in billions more in tax revenue.
When the post office loses a billion yet generates two billion more in tax revenue from the private sector it is good for the economy and the country. We waste more in the military in a week than the post office loses in a year.
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I can see your point. What I can't see is why the post office isn't required to raise rates to pay for itself. If it costs 75-cents to mail a letter, so be it. If junk mail goes from 6-cents (or whatever) to 12-cents, so be it. Why should taxpayers as a whole subsidize this system? There's no reason for it. Cut Saturday delivery. Close under-utilized post offices and give people the outside boxes that so many townhome subdivisions have...you know, the bank of boxes...put 'em in a well-lit location and be done with it. And if I get a few less pieces of junk mail in my mailbox: Hip! Hip! Hooray!!!!

There's no reason it can't be run as a break-even proposition.
 
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Ikari said:
We all win with the USPS and it is necessary. It does not have to make money, it has to exist.
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I agree and it can do better.
 
MaggieD said:
I can see your point. What I can't see is why the post office isn't required to raise rates to pay for itself. If it costs 75-cents to mail a letter, so be it. If junk mail goes from 6-cents (or whatever) to 12-cents, so be it. Why should taxpayers as a whole subsidize this system? There's no reason for it. Cut Saturday delivery. Close under-utilized post offices and give people the outside boxes that so many townhome associates have...you know, the bank of boxes...put 'em in a well-lit location and be done with it. And if I get a few less pieces of junk mail in my mailbox: Hip! Hip! Hooray!!!!

There's no reason it can't be run as a break-even proposition.
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I don't really know why they don't raise rates either. Unless they figure sales would drop, That should be part of a strategy to cut costs and increase revenue. I do know people really bitch about it, even a two cent increase.
 
It's getting a little tedious going round and round on this. So far the only argument I hear is "We need the post office because the government is s'posedta, you know... mail things." But what I do not hear is how we can afford to pay for it, or why it is strictly necessary in the same way as firefighters or police.

The world will not come to a grinding halt without the USPS. The free market will provide an alternative. It just won't come with the same pleasant memories from your childhood that provide you with a false sense of security the way government mail does.

So, setting aside all appeals to emotion, there is only one real solution here: drastic cuts to the post office. But considering that the emotional appeal usually wins the day in American politics, let's just keep throwing money away.
 
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Guy Incognito said:
It's getting a little tedious going round and round on this. So far the only argument I hear is "We need the post office because the government is s'posedta, you know... mail things." But what I do not hear is how we can afford to pay for it, or why it is strictly necessary in the same way as firefighters or police.

The world will not come to a grinding halt without the USPS. The free market will provide an alternative. It just won't come with the same pleasant memories from your childhood that provide you with a false sense of security the way government mail does.

So, setting aside all appeals to emotion, there is only one real solution here: drastic cuts to the post office. But considering that the emotional appeal usually wins the day in American politics, let's just keep throwing money away.
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no, the post office should raise their rates AND stop delivering on saturdays.
 
liblady said:
no, the post office should raise their rates AND stop delivering on saturdays.
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Well, that's what I mean by drastic cuts. But frankly I doubt that would be enough. As has been observed, raising their rates sufficiently is probably not an option since that would reduce business. The post office is too bloated to be salvaged, it is time to let go.
 
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