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Hero's unwelcome

CriticalThought said:
Oh, I certainly appreciate that they believe they are fighting for something as glorious as our freedom. I don't really care all that much what they believe. The fact is that since the Cold War they are nothing but tools. They fight for our continued economic and political supremacy and if it gives them a warm, glowly feeling to believe they are making the world a freer and better place by doing so, then all the better.
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They are no more tools than the person working 9 to 5 to create wealth for some corporation is a tool. They are no more tools than you or I are.
 
SE102 said:
Persecution complex^

We have plenty of conservative voices, speakers, and opinion on campuses. It's the stupid that isn't tolerated.
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No, I don't think so. I have not one, but two kids now in college, and see first hand the intolerance projected at them for their beliefs. The so called conservative voices on campus that I see, are either hassled on a weekly, or better basis, always under threat of pulling their ability to exist, or throngs of anti conservative students and prof's attend their events in hopes of shutting them down.

No persecution to it, just reality my friend.


j-mac
 
CriticalThought said:
We glorify it so that we can entice the stupid young people in our country to go get shot at so that we can strip other countries of their natural resources. It's better to say they are heros fighting for freedom and to make the world a safer and more democratic place than tell them the truth that they are just pawns we use to enforce our political and economic agendas on the world.
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And just as easily your view encourages people to be pawns of the opposition. So I guess everyone's a pawn in the big game of things.
The real issue, then, is "who do you want to be a pawn for. Those who will defend your rights or those who want to take them away?"

Check-mate.
 
CriticalThought said:
Bosnia? We lost what in that war; 12 people? Didn't we use Islamist groups to smuggle weapons to the Bosnian government forces? How did that turn out?

The attack on 9/11? Tell me, did we ever kill the guy who orchestrated it? After conquering two countries did we ever get that Osama bin Laden guy?
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The goal of war is rarely to kill any one. That is merely a byproduct of the methods that have to be used. The goal in those cases are increased security, which is quite likely what we have achieved.
 
CriticalThought said:
They weren't drafted, they chose to enlist. They decided they wanted to put themselves in harms way and that they wanted to make themselves obedient. As such, they were rash and stupid, which I suppose you want to call "brave" because you feel you owe them some sort of debt. Really, they chose to be our tool to enforce our economic and political agendas on the world in order to maintain our supremacy.
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Are you stupid when you drive on the road? You chose to take a risk. Things are not nearly what you think they are. I have never seen such an ignorant wrong headed view of the world and our military as what you are posting here.

Every action involves risks of some sort, frequently risks to life and health. People in the military chose that risk since they felt the reward was worth it. This is no different than a fireman accepting the risk to do his job, nor the person who commutes to work accepting the risk of the commute.
 
CriticalThought said:
I have nothing against our military, I just see them for what they are.
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Incorrect. You have shown that you see them for what you wish them to be. Your view in fact has exactly zero basis in what they really are.
 
SE102 said:
I fail to see what was so intellectual about the speaker. It's obvious this guy was laughed off stage and the NYpost saw an opportunity to sell some copies with smut to fuel the partisan divide. We don't even know what really happened but the jingo fever is starting to brew up in here.
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The purpose of the forum was to solicit views from the Columbia University community over whether the University should reinstate the ROTC program. It was not per se a rigidly intellectual exercise. It was an exercise in representative decision making. That, too, is a component of the intellectual experience that aims to prepare students for the roles they will later play in their careers, professions, and civil society.

Part of any intellectual discourse is the ability to express and, yes "painful" as it might seem to some who are overconfident in the "correctness" of their views, listen to differing perspectives. Rather than heckling, the students had ample opportunity to step to the microphone afterward to counter the viewpoint. That would have been the proper and respectful approach. Unfortunately, that's not what happened.
 
j-mac said:
No, I don't think so. I have not one, but two kids now in college, and see first hand the intolerance projected at them for their beliefs. The so called conservative voices on campus that I see, are either hassled on a weekly, or better basis, always under threat of pulling their ability to exist, or throngs of anti conservative students and prof's attend their events in hopes of shutting them down.

No persecution to it, just reality my friend.


j-mac
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When intellectual debates happen it tends to transcend the conservative liberal thingamabobber alot of people don't seem to be able to let go of. The philosophical positions can be laid bare without people freaking. What kind of events are they trying to 'shut down'? I go to a relatively conservative college.
 
donsutherland1 said:
The purpose of the forum was to solicit views from the Columbia University community over whether the University should reinstate the ROTC program. It was not per se a rigidly intellectual exercise. It was an exercise in representative decision making. That, too, is a component of the intellectual experience that aims to prepare students for the roles they will later play in their careers, professions, and civil society.

Part of any intellectual discourse is the ability to express and, yes "painful" as it might seem to some who are overconfident in the "correctness" of their views, listen to differing perspectives. Rather than heckling, the students had ample opportunity to step to the microphone afterward to counter the viewpoint. That would have been the proper and respectful approach. Unfortunately, that's not what happened.
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Sorry, that evil men that are evil because they just are and hate us because we are free as they plot to kill us everyday is absurd. Theres nothing intellectual about it and it received the natural and human reaction of absurd dismissal.
 
SE102 said:
Sorry, that evil men that are evil because they just are and hate us because we are free as they plot to kill us everyday is absurd. Theres nothing intellectual about it and it received the natural and human reaction of absurd dismissal.
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^Lives in Denial

So you deny that are people in the world that hate what the USA stands for and would love to see us fall?
 
SE102 said:
When intellectual debates happen it tends to transcend the conservative liberal thingamabobber alot of people don't seem to be able to let go of. The philosophical positions can be laid bare without people freaking. What kind of events are they trying to 'shut down'? I go to a relatively conservative college.
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I am not going to sit here and pull up endless youtube's of speeches given at campuses across this nation where the conservative speaker has been shouted down in hopes of the liberal students shutting down the event, but you and I know it does exist. To say that intellectual debate can not happen? No, I won't say that fully yet, ..... yet. But it is getting to a point where you are labeled if you are a student, and conservative. Grades are effected. It is wrong.

See, you think that it is only cons that have a hard time letting go of anything political when it comes to socializing on campus, but I am here to tell you that rarely do I see a conservative student taking the aggressive stance on campus, it is usually the liberal student that is in your face. So, I don't care whether you go to what you consider a conservative college, or a liberal one, the reality is that your faculty is mostly likely made up of liberal prof's that unless they can teach on a college campus, they be unemployable in the real world due to their inability to fit into society as a whole.

j-mac
 
SE102 said:
Sorry, that evil men that are evil because they just are and hate us because we are free as they plot to kill us everyday is absurd. Theres nothing intellectual about it and it received the natural and human reaction of absurd dismissal.
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And that would have been one line of argument that a subsequent speaker could have raised. The reality is that a lot of the public discourse on foreign/national security policy (not just on college campuses) is overly simplistic, naive, ill-informed, and often factually incorrect when numbers/claims are made.

A good case in point is some of the Town Hall meetings that were broadcast or streamed online during the 2008 and 2010 elections. But such a situation does not offer license to silence the speakers. Otherwise, on college campuses, the claim of academic freedom rings hollow, and in the political sphere claims that government is representative are similarly undermined.
 
donsutherland1 said:
And that would have been one line of argument that a subsequent speaker could have raised. The reality is that a lot of the public discourse on foreign/national security policy (not just on college campuses) is overly simplistic, naive, ill-informed, and often factually incorrect when numbers/claims are made.

A good case in point is some of the Town Hall meetings that were broadcast or streamed online during the 2008 and 2010 elections. But such a situation does not offer license to silence the speakers. Otherwise, on college campuses, the claim of academic freedom rings hollow, and in the political sphere claims that government is representative are similarly undermined.
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Now that is a fantastic point don. Why is it that the moniker of "Academic freedom" is such a lie today? Isn't it growing from the intolerance planted from the faculty?


j-mac
 
SE102 said:
Sorry, that evil men that are evil because they just are and hate us because we are free as they plot to kill us everyday is absurd. Theres nothing intellectual about it and it received the natural and human reaction of absurd dismissal.
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Are you kidding me ???? You actually believe that terrorists aren't plotting dozens of attacks on us at this very moment ???

If you really believe that, I am very grateful that you have no role in this country's defense.

To sum up your post with one word........

naive:

1. having or showing unaffected simplicity of nature or absence of artificiality; unsophisticated; ingenuous.
2. having or showing a lack of experience, judgment, or information; credulous: She's so naive she believes everything she reads. He has a very naive attitude toward politics.
 
donsutherland1 said:
But such a situation does not offer license to silence the speakers. Otherwise, on college campuses, the claim of academic freedom rings hollow, and in the political sphere claims that government is representative are similarly undermined.
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I suspect you haven't listened to the recording, Don. Had you done so you would hear that the vet was not silenced, he wasn't even interrupted. There was a little heckling and laughter in the background that didn't even serve to break his stride. This seems to me to be an issue that is being blown out of all proportion for partisan reasons.
 
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Andalublue said:
I suspect you haven't listened to the recording, Don. Had you done so you would hear that the vet was not silenced, he wasn't even interrupted. There was a little heckling and laughter in the background that didn't even serve to break his stride. This seems to me to be an issue that is being blown out of all proportion for partisan reasons.
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He responded to the audience and asked them for civility.

But, yes, I think this is being blown out of proportion- they're college teens. The majority of the audience was being respectful.
 
We have a very active JROTC program in our middle schools and high school. It's a great program and teaches discipline, perseverance and what it means to be honorable in your actions. Both my kids have been involved in this since middle school and several high schoolers here have been awarded scholarships for their involvement and dedication to JROTC.

I don't quite understand why having a soldier speak in favor of such a program, would be met with this kind of venom.

Of course, I live in a military town so maybe that tells the difference of how we view and receive programs such as the JROTC.. and of the military in general? I don't know. I just find this sort of behavior toward a military vet to be disgusting and abhorrent.
 
J-mac,

Unfortunately, I'm not in a position to offer any concrete conclusions as to why some college campuses might have evolved as they have. I can suggest two possible hypotheses:

1. Part of academic inquiry involves questioning/challenging generally-accepted views, structures, etc., as a subset of a rigorous exchange of views/ideas and their merits. Academic debate might have become skewed disproportionately along the line of challenging the establishment so to speak.

2. In the hiring process, one typically sees hirees who are remarkably similar to those hiring them e.g., managers who are incrementalists often hire/place in authority people who have similar styles, etc. The same likely happens on college campuses, where faculty hires/tenure decisions tend disproportionately to perpetuate the styles/outlook of existing faculty. Over time, that approach can narrow perspectives.
 
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Andalublue said:
I suspect you haven't listened to the recording, Don. Had you done so you would hear that the vet was not silenced, he wasn't even interrupted. There was a little heckling and laughter in the background that didn't even serve to break his stride. This seems to me to be an issue that is being blown out of all proportion for partisan reasons.
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It's not an isolated incident to have conservatives shouted down....Consider:





j-mac
 
Andalublue said:
I suspect you haven't listened to the recording, Don. Had you done so you would hear that the vet was not silenced, he wasn't even interrupted. There was a little heckling and laughter in the background that didn't even serve to break his stride. This seems to me to be an issue that is being blown out of all proportion for partisan reasons.
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I have only seen the story. I haven't seen any videos of what happened, but if what you are stating is correct, then the news story exaggerates what happened. Hopefully, that's the case.
 
donsutherland1 said:
J-mac,

Unfortunately, I'm not in a position to offer any concrete conclusions as to why some college campuses might have evolved as they have. I can suggest two possible hypotheses:

1. Part of academic inquiry involves questioning/challenging generally-accepted views, structures, etc., as a subset of a rigorous exchange of views/ideas and their merits. Academic debate might have become skewed disproportionately along the line of challenging the establishment so to speak.

2. In the hiring process, one typically sees hirees who are remarkably similar to those hiring them e.g., managers who are incrementalists often hire/place in authority people who have similar styles, etc. The same likely happens on college campuses, where faculty hires/tenure decisions tend disproportionately to perpetuate the styles/outlook of existing faculty. Over time, that approach can narrow perspectives.
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Possibly, and I don't reject your well thought out perspective, however, that still points to a problem within Colleges and Universities that take my tax dollars, and then soak me for crushing tuition costs then does it not?


j-mac
 
j-mac said:
Possibly, and I don't reject your well thought out perspective, however, that still points to a problem within Colleges and Universities that take my tax dollars, and then soak me for crushing tuition costs then does it not?


j-mac
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In an environment where academic freedom is impaired, I would suspect that student learning would be undermined. That outcome would not be good from a policy/budgeting standpoint nor from the consumer viewpoint where students pay tuition and receive less value from their education than might otherwise have been the case.
 
donsutherland1 said:
In an environment where academic freedom is impaired, I would suspect that student learning would be undermined. That outcome would not be good from a policy/budgeting standpoint nor from the consumer viewpoint where students pay tuition and receive less value from their education than might otherwise have been the case.
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Ok, but it skirts my concern. I understand you are essentially saying that the free market will take care of this in the long run, and yes you are probably right in that, however in the mean time, kids are being deprived of a good education, and my tax dollars, and tuition costs are being misappropriated for dishonest ends.


j-mac
 
j-mac said:
I am not going to sit here and pull up endless youtube's of speeches given at campuses across this nation where the conservative speaker has been shouted down in hopes of the liberal students shutting down the event, but you and I know it does exist. To say that intellectual debate can not happen? No, I won't say that fully yet, ..... yet. But it is getting to a point where you are labeled if you are a student, and conservative. Grades are effected. It is wrong.

See, you think that it is only cons that have a hard time letting go of anything political when it comes to socializing on campus, but I am here to tell you that rarely do I see a conservative student taking the aggressive stance on campus, it is usually the liberal student that is in your face. So, I don't care whether you go to what you consider a conservative college, or a liberal one, the reality is that your faculty is mostly likely made up of liberal prof's that unless they can teach on a college campus, they be unemployable in the real world due to their inability to fit into society as a whole.

j-mac
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Oh good god when did conservatives become such whiny victims? Kids act like assholes, it must be the liberals fault and my feelings are hurt...
 
j-mac said:
Now that is a fantastic point don. Why is it that the moniker of "Academic freedom" is such a lie today? Isn't it growing from the intolerance planted from the faculty?


j-mac
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Would you include topics like creationism in "academic freedom"? If kids are being hassled in college for their beliefs, perhaps they are wrong. It could happen....
I will never forget the day it was announced in my high school that President Kennedy was killed. One young man said, "great, another nigger lover dead".
He was threatened on the spot, and was smart enough to keep his mouth shut. This was in East Texas, btw....
 
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