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Gaddafi flees Tripoli as protesters set the Libyan parliament building alight

haymarket said:
Our methods are not the worlds methods. The way we express our self determination may not be how other nations express their self determination. The sooner we realize that we are not writing the rule book and others are not playing by it, the better off we will be in understanding the rest of the world.
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so if they elect a government that mandates rape victims should be stoned, and all women need to be circumsized and covered up, whe should just chalk it up to "Well that's there ways"?

That's not liberty, and no I cant support that.


Even in the USA, a minority of people elect the president every four years. People in other nations could use that as evidence that our system is flawed and not what it professes to be.
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Backed by a constitution that limits the role of government, something not seen in the ME here.
 
haymarket said:
Our methods are not the worlds methods. The way we express our self determination may not be how other nations express their self determination. The sooner we realize that we are not writing the rule book and others are not playing by it, the better off we will be in understanding the rest of the world.

Even in the USA, a minority of people elect the president every four years. People in other nations could use that as evidence that our system is flawed and not what it professes to be.
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My sense is that no one is saying we have the blueprint for anything. That being said it seems like a fair statement that no one knows who is backing any of these uprising. We know that all of the leaders being overthrown are despots, what is not clear are the intentions behind the people overthrowing them.

It seems that these people are a lot more organized than you would expect from a group of college kids. So who really are these people and what type of government will they put in place. Let's remember that the current rulers for the most part overthrew other despots.
 
ReverendHellh0und said:
so if they elect a government that mandates rape victims should be stoned, and all women need to be circumsized and covered up, whe should just chalk it up to "Well that's there ways"?

That's not liberty, and no I cant support that.





Backed by a constitution that limits the role of government, something not seen in the ME here.
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There is a tendency for people to single out what is different from them and pounce on that as a target for criticism. You and I understand the American system because we are Americans. Others do not have that depth of knowledge or experience as we do with our own system so what they cite as a deficiency or flaw may not be seen that way by us.

And the same is true for us and them.
 
ReverendHellh0und said:
If democracy does spread througout the ME in a good way.....


Will the Democrats and liberals acknowledge and give credit to bush for his policies of spreading democracy in the ME? :ssst:
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I fail to see any connection between our wars and what is happening in north africa, but if you say so...
 
ReverendHellh0und said:
Holy crap, the Mideast is having a domino effect....

I'm thinking though by the end of all this, the devil we knew might have been the safer bet.....
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Sounds like you've been watching too much Fox News.

A safe bet for our business interests maybe.

The last two weeks 60 Minutes has done great pieces on the uprisings.
 
hazlnut said:
Sounds like you've been watching too much Fox News.

A safe bet for our business interests maybe.
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I don't watch fox news, and nothing I posted indicated I have. Let's not troll. Thank you.


The last two weeks 60 Minutes has done great pieces on the uprisings.
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The one on Tunsania was great. The radio guy they interviewed was truly impressive, if not naive... I hope I am wrong, but as I said before, I think we should be cautiously optomistic here.
 
megaprogman said:
I fail to see any connection between our wars and what is happening in north africa, but if you say so...
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Bush said, democracy in Iraq would lead to further and more uprisings.... how or why, dunno, he seems to have been right. Now how much Iraq has to do with it, I don't know. But he nailed it..... :shrug:
 
haymarket said:
There is a tendency for people to single out what is different from them and pounce on that as a target for criticism. You and I understand the American system because we are Americans. Others do not have that depth of knowledge or experience as we do with our own system so what they cite as a deficiency or flaw may not be seen that way by us.

And the same is true for us and them.
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STONING RAPE VICTIMS AND GENITAL MUTILATION OF LITTLE GIRLS....


This is not a simple disagreement, but an abhorrent practice that has little to do with "freedom"....
 
ReverendHellh0und said:
Bush said, democracy in Iraq would lead to further and more uprisings.... how or why, dunno, he seems to have been right. Now how much Iraq has to do with it, I don't know. But he nailed it..... :shrug:
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We don't know at this point if it was a cause or not. It is equally possible that this uprising would have happened anyway due to the influence of the internet and social media.
 
ReverendHellh0und said:
Agreed. I fully admit, I couldn't resist. ;)
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What we know is that the youth in almost all middle east countries are more western in outlook than the older generation. This has nothing to do with our wars and more to do with the fact that communications are better and education is better than it has been ever in that region. That is a point that is generally agreed apon by just about everyone.

However the wars are a variable I do not know. They either sped up what was likely going to happen anyway (by creating a sort of democracy in Iraq), slowed it down (by increasing distrust of the US and our way of life), or had no effect.
 
megaprogman said:
What we know is that the youth in almost all middle east countries are more western in outlook than the older generation. This has nothing to do with our wars and more to do with the fact that communications are better and education is better than it has been ever in that region. That is a point that is generally agreed apon by just about everyone.

However the wars are a variable I do not know. They either sped up what was likely going to happen anyway (by creating a sort of democracy in Iraq), slowed it down (by increasing distrust of the US and our way of life), or had no effect.
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It's too early to tell. Yes the youth want certain things, but didn't they also want these same things in Iran?
 
ReverendHellh0und said:
It's too early to tell. Yes the youth want certain things, but didn't they also want these same things in Iran?
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They did and sadly they were shot down :(

We need to see how this goes and help liberate the people where we can.
 
I may very well be the only liberal who felt that the War in Iraq was a good thing for the simple fact of having a ME base of operations in the War on Terror. That being said, I should not think what we are seeing now is any result of Iraq. More likely it is due to the modern communications available. Poverty has driven these people to a point where they have nothing to lose and will no longer stand-by as their leaders only make themselves rich at the expense of the nations they are to lead. Same scenario has been one of the CCP's biggest fears in China for many years, and I can guarantee you that China is keeping a close watch on their Western borders for fear that the unrest will reach their doorstep.
 
apdst said:
This is going to end with a massive war between Islam and everybody else.
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I suggest we stock up on popcorn, soda, and beer, break out a lawn chair, and sit this one out.
 
VanceMack said:
I suggest we stock up on popcorn, soda, and beer, break out a lawn chair, and sit this one out.
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We're not going to be able to. We're going to be the number one target.
 
apdst said:
This is going to end with a massive war between Islam and everybody else.
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Im guessing you forgot everything you know about Islam and the Middle East when you made that statement.
 
ReverendHellh0und said:
Holy crap, the Mideast is having a domino effect....

I'm thinking though by the end of all this, the devil we knew might have been the safer bet.....
Click to expand...

The problem with revolutions in countries like Libya in which no political entities not affiliated the regime are allowed to organize is that there is no one to take charge and advance reforms after the regime is overthrown. It is worth noting that nearly every regime that has been overthrown or is in danger of being overthrown came to power as the result of an earlier revolution.
 
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