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Texas poised to pass bill allowing guns on campus

Jerry said:
Allowing firearms on campus can only be a good thing.

EDITORIAL: Guns decrease murder rates



Harvard Study: Gun Control Is Counterproductive



Concealed carry in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Criminals generally want easy targets. Having a gun makes you a harder target. When you're in a population which carries, you are safer even if you don't carry a gun yourself, because a criminal has no way of knowing if you're carrying concealed or not and doesn't want to risk finding out the hard way.


Pistol: In common use at the time? Yes. Is dangerous and unusual? No.
Rifle: In common use at the time? Yes. Is dangerous and unusual? No.
Automatic rifle: In common use at the time? Yes. Is dangerous and unusual? No.
Grenade launcher: In common use at the time? Yes. Is dangerous and unusual? Yes.
Patriot missile battery: In common use at the time? No. Is dangerous and unusual? Yes.
Nuclear warheads: In common use at the time? No. Is dangerous and unusual? Yes.

Tanks are not weapons. Tanks are vehicles weapons can be mounted in, but anyone with enough money to buy one can own one. That doesn't mean you can have a functioning cannon, 50cal machine gun, 2 saw machine guns, or grenades...it means you can ave the tank and the tank only.

You can own a black hawk helicopter, also...doesn't mean you can have the twin mini-guns.

***
We're talking about citizens 21 years of age and older, who also have a CCW, carrying a pistol on campus.
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I am sure the holophobes will try to scare people into rejecting the idea by claiming that the college campuses will be like the wild west just like they tried to with conceal carry permits in many states.
 
I am glad this is finally going to be tried in the real world... we'll soon have real-world results to look at instead of unfounded speculation. I hope it spreads also... South Carolina has some pending legislation on the subject, including expansion of CCW rights in general and possibly a "no permit required" stipulation.

Twenty-some years ago, when shall-issue (easy to get) CCW began becoming popular (a few states had it, several more were considering it), Certain Persons said this: "ZOMG!! It will be a WILD WEST BLOODBATH!!!(gasp!!)".

Results, 20-some years later: 41 states now have shall-issue CCW. The hysterics of Certain Persons have been shown to be utterly unfounded. Crime has gone down and continues to do so. CCW permit holders have been show to be statistically far more peaceful and law abiding than even the general population.

I strongly suspect we'll find out much the same thing about the guns-on-campus hysteria of Certain Persons.
 
DiAnna said:
But do you have to be 21 to get a permit to carry a concealed weapon?
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In SD, an 18 year old who can obtain a CCW may carry a pistol concealed.

South Dakota Codified Laws
23-7-44. Possession of pistols by minors prohibited--Misdemeanor. No person under the age of eighteen years may knowingly possess a pistol. A violation of this section is a Class 1 misdemeanor.
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DiAnna said:
I have no problem with adults on campus who have passed the proper procedures to carry concealed weapons take their guns on campus. I'm simply wondering what kind of procedures are in place to assure that those carrying such weapons know how to properly use them. Yes, 18 year olds are "adults". Kinda. :)
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Here are the conditions to acquire a CCW in SD:
South Dakota Codified Laws
23-7-7.1. Requirements for issuance of temporary permit--Time--Appeal of denial. A temporary permit to carry a concealed pistol shall be issued within five days of application to a person if the applicant:
Is eighteen years of age or older;
  1. Has never pled guilty to, nolo contendere to, or been convicted of a felony or a crime of violence;
  2. Is not habitually in an intoxicated or drugged condition;
  3. Has no history of violence;
  4. Has not been found in the previous ten years to be a "danger to others" or a "danger to self" as defined in § 27A-1-1 or is not currently adjudged mentally incompetent;
  5. Has physically resided in and is a resident of the county where the application is being made for at least thirty days immediately preceding the date of the application;
  6. Has had no violations of chapter 23-7, 22-14, or 22-42 constituting a felony or misdemeanor in the five years preceding the date of application or is not currently charged under indictment or information for such an offense;
  7. Is a citizen of the United States; and
  8. Is not a fugitive from justice.
A person denied a permit may appeal to the circuit court pursuant to chapter 1-26.
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I'm curious as to where the information about CCW relating to notable reductions in crime rate comes from. Last I checked, there is no clear causal link between violent crime and gun laws, either way.
 
TheBook said:
I'm curious as to where the information about CCW relating to notable reductions in crime rate comes from. Last I checked, there is no clear causal link between violent crime and gun laws, either way.
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As I was careful to include exactly such data, from credible sources, in my OP, your post tells me you didn't bother to read the OP before posting.

Why should anyone here engage you with any level of sincerity if you refuse to avail yourself of information when offered? I can only, therefore, assume your intent on this thread is to troll. To answer your question, one such place this information comes from is Harvard. Please review the OP and kindly stick to the topic.
 
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Jerry said:
The kind of person who gets a CCW is not the kind of person who gets in a drunken stupor at frat parties. These are 2 different types of personalities; just like the gay who joins the military is not the kind of person who marches in the nude or cross-dressed in gay-pride parades.

It is precisely because rowdy individuals bring the irresponsible consumption of liquor to the campus life that responsible individuals need to be able to properly defend themselves.

It is precisely because every once in a while there is some insane lunatic who decides he wants to shoot up the school that the student body need to be permitted to train and carry the ability to defend themselves.

And if you thing terrorists aren't targeting our middle schools, think again.



Liquor stores aren't full of drunk people...at least not here...but I don't mind to much because the grocery store has better liquor prices anyway. You're typical CCW holder will even unload and secure their weapon before drinking at home. I speak from personal experience there.

There was a push in SD to allow CCW holders to carry into bars and liquor stores, with the understanding that you still are not allowed to be legally intoxicated while carrying regardless of where you are. The bill failed as it didn't have enough support, but rumor has it it will be brought back up in the next year or two.
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I totally disagree with allowing concealed carry in bars, since alcohol greatly reduces the critical thinking ability needed to be responsible for carrying a weapon.

CCW in bars? It's an insane idea.
 
danarhea said:
I totally disagree with allowing concealed carry in bars, since alcohol greatly reduces the critical thinking ability needed to be responsible for carrying a weapon.

CCW in bars? It's an insane idea.
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I'm not sure that if it were legal, how many would. I mean we essentially have that here, it's a bit CCW and open carry city; places have to announce being gun free. But even then, I hardly see anyone getting into gun fights at the bar or anything like that. I just don't think that the people who tend to CCW will conceal carry at a bar. And if they do, they haven't really caused a problem yet.

Now if these were Greely folk, it would probably be an issue.
 
danarhea said:
I totally disagree with allowing concealed carry in bars, since alcohol greatly reduces the critical thinking ability needed to be responsible for carrying a weapon.

CCW in bars? It's an insane idea.
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When that legislation was pending, one point it's proponents had to constantly reiterate was that one still was not allowed to be legally intoxicated while carrying.
 
Ikari said:
I'm not sure that if it were legal, how many would. I mean we essentially have that here, it's a bit CCW and open carry city; places have to announce being gun free. But even then, I hardly see anyone getting into gun fights at the bar or anything like that. I just don't think that the people who tend to CCW will conceal carry at a bar. And if they do, they haven't really caused a problem yet.

Now if these were Greely folk, it would probably be an issue.
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Indeed, as CCW holders are the most law-abiding, the kind of person who gets a CCW is not the kind of person who would get into a bar fight.

IMO the bar is one place where the firearm is needed for personal defense precisely because of the presence of liquor.
 
Barbbtx said:
Do we know if proper training won't be a requirement?

If it's not, I'm with you.
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In SD we're moving away from requiring a permit at all.

Given all the evidence demonstrating the benefit of an armed society, we view the requirement of a permit to exercise a specifically enumerated protected right as the equivalent of having to register your religion or get a permit to express a political opinion.

It is already illegal for the state or vendors to keep a list or require registration of any firearm, in the interest of privacy. The move away from requiring a permit follows that line of thinking.
 
I personally do not care if law-abiding, sane individuals in our society arm themselves, even with semi-automatic rifles and various handguns (standard clips). But when it comes to providing all manner of firearms to gangs and violent criminals (like alcoholics visiting a Liquor Warehouse store), I draw the line. Enough is enough.


Study: Crime Guns Bought At Shows - Sacramento News Story - KCRA Sacramento
 
danarhea said:
I totally disagree with allowing concealed carry in bars, since alcohol greatly reduces the critical thinking ability needed to be responsible for carrying a weapon.

CCW in bars? It's an insane idea.
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It's already been allowed in Tennessee. To my understanding there have been no problems to this point.

The thing you have to remember is you can't legally drink AND pack. One or the other. Also, remember that those with bad intentions and no concern for the law are ALREADY ARMED at the bar.... and at the college campus.
 
Sonoma said:
I personally do not care if law-abiding, sane individuals in our society arm themselves, even with semi-automatic rifles and various handguns (standard clips). But when it comes to providing all manner of firearms to gangs and violent criminals (like alcoholics visiting a Liquor Warehouse store), I draw the line. Enough is enough.


Study: Crime Guns Bought At Shows - Sacramento News Story - KCRA Sacramento
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Regardless of one story about this subject, gun shows are not the problem. Buy a gun from a dealer, you do a NICS background check, period. The dealers know that any violations will cost them their license, and that the cops are hanging around lots of these shows too.

Yes, PRIVATE sales at gun shows don't require a background check. Private sales ANYWHERE don't require one, at least not in most states. However, as someone who's sold a couple of guns in this manner, let me tell you I would never knowingly sell any gun to anyone I found the least bit suspicious, let alone an obvious gang-banger.

Most guns used in crime are stolen guns, per FBI stats.
 
Assuming everyone in a bar gets drunk is like assuming everyone who marries has children.
 
Jerry said:
IMO the bar is one place where the firearm is needed for personal defense precisely because of the presence of liquor.
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Bringing a gun to a bar fight? I have been going to bars for 40 years and have seen a few brawls. I don't think the arming of the combatants or bystanders would have resulted in a better outcome.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/04/us/04guns.html
 
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USA_1 said:
Bringing a gun to a bar fight? I have been going to bars for 40 years and have seen a few brawls. I don't think the arming of the combatants or bystanders would have resulted in a better outcome.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/04/us/04guns.html
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Well sir, I gave up the bar scene a long time ago, but I saw a few bars shot up AFTER a bar fight... and yeah it was illegal to bring the gun into the bar. Didn't stop them. Never does.

Might as well let the law-abiding stand on equal footing.

At any rate no one is talking about bringing a gun to a bar fight. That's something that is done by idiots and criminals, who don't care if it is legal. Mainly it is to avoid CCW'ers from being barred from restaurants that serve alcohol, at least in my home state. Still can't drink and pack but you can go in and eat.
 
USA_1 said:
Bringing a gun to a bar fight? I have been going to bars for 40 years and have seen a few brawls. I don't think the arming of the combatants or bystanders would have resulted in a better outcome.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/04/us/04guns.html
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I already understand that people feel that guns are a hazard. What I haven't seen is evidence rationalizing this fear.

I appreciate the article you linked to, it seems to represent each side's argument fairly. Though, it seems that you posted it as evidence, which it's not. If that wasn't your intention, that's just fine, as I said it was a fine article on it's own account.

I'm hopping to understand this fear of guns in bars by reviewing the evidence backing up that argument. If you ever find any, please share it here.
 
Goshin said:
Well sir, I gave up the bar scene a long time ago, but I saw a few bars shot up AFTER a bar fight... and yeah it was illegal to bring the gun into the bar. Didn't stop them. Never does.

Might as well let the law-abiding stand on equal footing.

At any rate no one is talking about bringing a gun to a bar fight. That's something that is done by idiots and criminals, who don't care if it is legal. Mainly it is to avoid CCW'ers from being barred from restaurants that serve alcohol, at least in my home state. Still can't drink and pack but you can go in and eat.
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From USA_1's link:
Under Tennessee’s new law, gun permit holders are not supposed to drink alcohol while carrying their weapons. Mr. Ringenberg washed down his steak sandwich with a Coke.
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It's as though most people don't realize that there's more to do in bars/pubs then drink.
 
Jerry said:
Indeed, as CCW holders are the most law-abiding, the kind of person who gets a CCW is not the kind of person who would get into a bar fight.

IMO the bar is one place where the firearm is needed for personal defense precisely because of the presence of liquor.
Click to expand...

Sadly, I would disagree with this. First, consuming alcohol will impair your judgement. Doesn't matter if your BAC is .05 or .15, you consumed alcohol which will impair your judgement. Second, think of it as a car, it has it's purposed. CCW is for defense, a car is for transportation. Does it mean you can drive home while impaired? Then why would you carry a weapon while impaired also. If you are designated driver, then by all means, carry your CCW. Otherwise, leave it at home, you probably wouldn't hit the broad side of the barn after drinking a few.
 
MCS117 said:
Sadly, I would disagree with this. First, consuming alcohol will impair your judgement. Doesn't matter if your BAC is .05 or .15, you consumed alcohol which will impair your judgement. Second, think of it as a car, it has it's purposed. CCW is for defense, a car is for transportation. Does it mean you can drive home while impaired? Then why would you carry a weapon while impaired also. If you are designated driver, then by all means, carry your CCW. Otherwise, leave it at home, you probably wouldn't hit the broad side of the barn after drinking a few.
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Actually we're not talking about drinking and packing, we're just talking about being allowed to CCW in a place that serves alcohol. The states that allow that don't allow you to drink and pack at all, just to be there.

In my home state the issue is restaurants that serve alcohol, since my state doesn't distinguish between a bar and a restaurant with a liquor license.

Again, nobody is talking about boozing it up while packing your CCW.
 
MCS117 said:
Sadly, I would disagree with this. First, consuming alcohol will impair your judgement. Doesn't matter if your BAC is .05 or .15, you consumed alcohol which will impair your judgement. Second, think of it as a car, it has it's purposed. CCW is for defense, a car is for transportation. Does it mean you can drive home while impaired? Then why would you carry a weapon while impaired also. If you are designated driver, then by all means, carry your CCW. Otherwise, leave it at home, you probably wouldn't hit the broad side of the barn after drinking a few.
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I'm curious, why is it that you ignore the laws preventing anyone from drinking while carrying? Is it that you didn't read the post of mine you were quoting, or is your intent in this thread to troll?

No one is allowed to drink while armed. Period. End of story. It doesn't matter where you are, or what you're doing. If you have a gun, you can't drink; if you drink, you can't have the gun.

Please redress your argument accordingly.
 
Goshin said:
Actually we're not talking about drinking and packing, we're just talking about being allowed to CCW in a place that serves alcohol. The states that allow that don't allow you to drink and pack at all, just to be there.

In my home state the issue is restaurants that serve alcohol, since my state doesn't distinguish between a bar and a restaurant with a liquor license.

Again, nobody is talking about boozing it up while packing your CCW.
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MCS117, I can't carry into Applebees or Chilly's, because these businesses serve liquor. Now, I don't drink, but I do enjoy a nice dinner. How am I a threat in this setting?

***
Ironic that I can't go into a liquor store, but I can go into the liquor section of the supermarket.
 
Jerry said:
Allowing firearms on campus can only be a good thing.

EDITORIAL: Guns decrease murder rates



Harvard Study: Gun Control Is Counterproductive



Concealed carry in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Criminals generally want easy targets. Having a gun makes you a harder target. When you're in a population which carries, you are safer even if you don't carry a gun yourself, because a criminal has no way of knowing if you're carrying concealed or not and doesn't want to risk finding out the hard way.


Pistol: In common use at the time? Yes. Is dangerous and unusual? No.
Rifle: In common use at the time? Yes. Is dangerous and unusual? No.
Automatic rifle: In common use at the time? Yes. Is dangerous and unusual? No.
Grenade launcher: In common use at the time? Yes. Is dangerous and unusual? Yes.
Patriot missile battery: In common use at the time? No. Is dangerous and unusual? Yes.
Nuclear warheads: In common use at the time? No. Is dangerous and unusual? Yes.

Tanks are not weapons. Tanks are vehicles weapons can be mounted in, but anyone with enough money to buy one can own one. That doesn't mean you can have a functioning cannon, 50cal machine gun, 2 saw machine guns, or grenades...it means you can ave the tank and the tank only.

You can own a black hawk helicopter, also...doesn't mean you can have the twin mini-guns.

***
We're talking about citizens 21 years of age and older, who also have a CCW, carrying a pistol on campus.
Click to expand...



It truly blows my mind that Americans can stare right at the truth and see nothing of it. It is beyond comprehension that anyone can look at stats like: Increase in Guns --> Increase in Gun Crimes, Decrease in Guns --> Decrease in Gun Crimes, and say "MOAR GUNS MEANS SAFER COMMUNITIES!"

And now, bringing them into schools? A dying culture indeed.
 
Le Marteau said:
It truly blows my mind that Americans can stare right at the truth and see nothing of it. It is beyond comprehension that anyone can look at stats like: Increase in Guns --> Increase in Gun Crimes, Decrease in Guns --> Decrease in Gun Crimes, and say "MOAR GUNS MEANS SAFER COMMUNITIES!"

And now, bringing them into schools? A dying culture indeed.
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That's one way to ignore the evidence, though I could have added more flair.
 
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