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House GOP fumbles on Patriot Act renewal

Great to see a bit of bipartisanship in the vote on this threat to our freedom. "Twenty-six Republicans opposed the bill, as did 122 Democrats." :sun
 
VanceMack said:
Any terrorists...however we already use the RICO stautes and others (which no one seems to bitch about) when we go after organized crime, gangs, or people the ilk of Tim McVeigh. The Patriot Act as I understand it was specifically designed to target foreigners on American soil who plot, plan, fund, etc terror activities hiding under the protection of the constitution.
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The CIA and FAA were well aware of the potential of a 9/11 to take place. I don't believe the Patriot Act would have prevented 9/11. If it is designed to target foreigners it should only be applicable to foreigners. Just because they may hide under the Constitution does not mean the solution is to take away the Constitutional rights of U.S. citizens. (PS: I don't think the Constitution applies to them in that regard, but I'm not positive). 9/11 is a result of what the CIA refers to as blowback. The U.S. needs to stop meddling in the Middle East. Osama Bin Laden already addressed the reasons for attacking America. There are some legitimate reasons.
 
Helvidius said:
The CIA and FAA were well aware of the potential of a 9/11 to take place. I don't believe the Patriot Act would have prevented 9/11. If it is designed to target foreigners it should only be applicable to foreigners. Just because they may hide under the Constitution does not mean the solution is to take away the Constitutional rights of U.S. citizens. (PS: I don't think the Constitution applies to them in that regard, but I'm not positive). 9/11 is a result of what the CIA refers to as blowback. The U.S. needs to stop meddling in the Middle East. Osama Bin Laden already addressed the reasons for attacking America. There are some legitimate reasons.
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As my grandpappy used to say..."why thats just horse****, son..."

Muslim extremists have been slaughtering muslims and non muslims alike for decades. It has everything to do with their twisted ideology.

That being said...OBVIOUSLY the CIA and Feebs failed to stop 9-11. Since then there have been several terror plots uncovered (domestic terrorism one of the few areas I give Obama a thumbs up on). IF there are abuses involving American citizens...and gosh...since it is so prevalent you would think there would be actual VICTIMS of wrongful prosecution via the patriot Act coming forward...then it needs to be addressed. havign NO policy to combat foreigners that engage in terrorist activities on American soil is simply sticking your head under a pillow and waiting for it to happen again.
 
VanceMack said:
As my grandpappy used to say..."why thats just horse****, son..."

Muslim extremists have been slaughtering muslims and non muslims alike for decades. It has everything to do with their twisted ideology.

That being said...OBVIOUSLY the CIA and Feebs failed to stop 9-11. Since then there have been several terror plots uncovered (domestic terrorism one of the few areas I give Obama a thumbs up on). IF there are abuses involving American citizens...and gosh...since it is so prevalent you would think there would be actual VICTIMS of wrongful prosecution via the patriot Act coming forward...then it needs to be addressed. havign NO policy to combat foreigners that engage in terrorist activities on American soil is simply sticking your head under a pillow and waiting for it to happen again.
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I have no idea why you said, "OBVIOUSLY the CIA and Feebs failed to stop 9-11". I said CIA and FAA were well aware of the potential for an attack so with that being said, how would the Patriot Act have prevented 9/11? How exactly would you address the victims of the Patriot Act? The whole thing tramples over the U.S. Constitution. It is like opening Pandora's box. My point is that these terrorists are a result of foreign policy. Change foreign policy and we won't have such a big issue with terrorist threats. Hell, why not bring home troops to help? Or perhaps we can just go into Marshall Law so we have nothing to worry about...
 
Helvidius said:
I have no idea why you said, "OBVIOUSLY the CIA and Feebs failed to stop 9-11". I said CIA and FAA were well aware of the potential for an attack so with that being said, how would the Patriot Act have prevented 9/11? How exactly would you address the victims of the Patriot Act? The whole thing tramples over the U.S. Constitution. It is like opening Pandora's box. My point is that these terrorists are a result of foreign policy. Change foreign policy and we won't have such a big issue with terrorist threats. Hell, why not bring home troops to help? Or perhaps we can just go into Marshall Law so we have nothing to worry about...
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The CIA and FBI both failed to communicate on the monitoring of the individuals believed to be involved in the planning and execution of 9-11. There was a failing in inter as well as intra departmental communication. I dont know if utilizing modern technology and tracking phone calls to terrorist states and utilizing the provisions of the Patriot Act would have helped. I know if it helps to prevent future acts, then I am for it.

Just out of curiosity...other than talking points about the Patriot Act, have you read it? Are you familiar with the statutes? What is different in the Patriot Act that isnt enacted in statutes utilized to fight organized crime? And again...do you know of US citizens who have been falsely prosecuted by overzealous agents utilizing the Patriot Act?

If...IF there are abuses then they should be addressed. IF the statutes are being inappropriately applied that should be addressed. US Citizens should not have their constitutional rights violated. Non citizens are not entitled to the same protections.
 
Helvidius said:
I have no idea why you said, "OBVIOUSLY the CIA and Feebs failed to stop 9-11". I said CIA and FAA were well aware of the potential for an attack so with that being said, how would the Patriot Act have prevented 9/11? How exactly would you address the victims of the Patriot Act? The whole thing tramples over the U.S. Constitution. It is like opening Pandora's box. My point is that these terrorists are a result of foreign policy. Change foreign policy and we won't have such a big issue with terrorist threats. Hell, why not bring home troops to help? Or perhaps we can just go into Marshall Law so we have nothing to worry about...
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BTW...in order for their to be remuneration for the 'victims' of the Patriot Act, first you have to point them out. And IF there are victims they are entitled to the same process as are ALL citizens. All Im hearing are the same tired standard "evil Patriot Act is violating peoples rights" rhetorical bull****.
 
the patriot act passed the senate today, 86 to 12

NationalJournal.com - Senate Passes Extension of Patriot Act Provisions - Tuesday, February 15, 2011

remember when the adults upstairs slammed open obama's wannabe closed-door at gitmo, third month of the oblivious presidency, 90 to 6?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/05/20/senate-votes-to-block-fun_n_205797.html

with numbers like that, if you're not aboard you're a splinter

should we look at rendition, now?

in the roughouse world of realpolitik, obtuse obama never did know what he's doing

embarrassed yet?
 
danarhea said:
If this is GOP incompetence, then damn it, give me more.
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The Patriot Act was never about patriotism. It was about a police state martial law. Now if they could only get rid of the NSA we could all go back to what it was like before the contrived political hysteria

ricksfolly
 
VanceMack said:
The CIA and FBI both failed to communicate on the monitoring of the individuals believed to be involved in the planning and execution of 9-11. There was a failing in inter as well as intra departmental communication. I dont know if utilizing modern technology and tracking phone calls to terrorist states and utilizing the provisions of the Patriot Act would have helped. I know if it helps to prevent future acts, then I am for it.

Just out of curiosity...other than talking points about the Patriot Act, have you read it? Are you familiar with the statutes? What is different in the Patriot Act that isnt enacted in statutes utilized to fight organized crime? And again...do you know of US citizens who have been falsely prosecuted by overzealous agents utilizing the Patriot Act?

If...IF there are abuses then they should be addressed. IF the statutes are being inappropriately applied that should be addressed. US Citizens should not have their constitutional rights violated. Non citizens are not entitled to the same protections.
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I have read a solid amount of it, but I haven't found the time to sit down and read all 342 pages. Have you?

Here is an example of a U.S. citizen being abused: Mom says Patriot Act stripped son of due process :: WRAL.com

I don't trust the federal government enough to allow search and seizure without a warrant. How long will the FBI have this power? When will the war on terror end? And when/if it does will they be willing to give it up? Might as well throw the Constitution away, fourth amendment clearly doesn't apply anymore.
 
Helvidius said:
I have read a solid amount of it, but I haven't found the time to sit down and read all 342 pages. Have you?

Here is an example of a U.S. citizen being abused: Mom says Patriot Act stripped son of due process :: WRAL.com

I don't trust the federal government enough to allow search and seizure without a warrant. How long will the FBI have this power? When will the war on terror end? And when/if it does will they be willing to give it up? Might as well throw the Constitution away, fourth amendment clearly doesn't apply anymore.
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Now read the facts...which is the Patriot Act hysteria is such foolishness...

Teen Ashton Lundeby Charged as an Adult for Bomb Threats | Threat Level | Wired.com
 
VanceMack said:
The borders arent secure for political expediency. The Obama admin is COUNTING on capitalizing on the Hispanic vote. If they secure the southern border they lose their edge. They know it. National security is at risk in the name of political expediency.
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That could be one reason for it. But I must point out that not only democrats are guilty of this. While we had a Republican majority and Republican administration the rhetoric might have been different but the inaction was the same. Both parties also allow it for other reasons related to free trade, statist profits from prosecuting our drug wars, and the reason I mentioned earlier; that they don't really care about terrorism.

I went to the link above (Wow...just wow)...and from there went to the CATO institute. I saw several declarations of abuses of the Patriot Act...I STILL have yet to see the instances where private citizens have been targeted. I understand the concern...I truly do. And I can understand why people dont like the Patriot Act.
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Well how would we know? They have removed the constitutional method of using warrants to notify and the necessary proof to gain such warrants. They now have the right to spy on anybody just because they have a "hunch". Pardon me if I don't trust my government. It has a long record of being untrustworthy in many instances.
However...if people still...in this day and age are not convinced that there are non-citizens here in this country illegally and with bad intent, then those people are either deluded or deliberatley ignorant. There HAS to be an effective tool in combating terrorism. And for those that think the Patriot Act is not the way, Id love to hear your answers.
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You act as if our police and feds never had any methods of investigating crime without this and that is just a lie. Terrorist acts have happened long before 9/11 and will continue to happen. How many rights are you willing to give up each time it happens?


Whovian said:
Why worry about catching and arresting people who are not even here yet? Much easier to just arrest the ones that are already here, right?
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I don't oppose arresting criminals. I oppose unlawful search and seizures as defined by our constitution.
 
Illumination said:
That could be one reason for it. But I must point out that not only democrats are guilty of this. While we had a Republican majority and Republican administration the rhetoric might have been different but the inaction was the same. Both parties also allow it for other reasons related to free trade, statist profits from prosecuting our drug wars, and the reason I mentioned earlier; that they don't really care about terrorism.

Well how would we know? They have removed the constitutional method of using warrants to notify and the necessary proof to gain such warrants. They now have the right to spy on anybody just because they have a "hunch". Pardon me if I don't trust my government. It has a long record of being untrustworthy in many instances.

You act as if our police and feds never had any methods of investigating crime without this and that is just a lie. Terrorist acts have happened long before 9/11 and will continue to happen. How many rights are you willing to give up each time it happens?



I don't oppose arresting criminals. I oppose unlawful search and seizures as defined by our constitution.
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So do I...especially with regard to US Citizens. I think they should use any means necessary where terrorists are concerned. I also agree it is a bi-partisan fluff job.
 
ricksfolly said:
The Patriot Act was never about patriotism. It was about a police state martial law. Now if they could only get rid of the NSA we could all go back to what it was like before the contrived political hysteria

ricksfolly
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Show me the martial law that occurred. Right now!
 
danarhea said:
If this is GOP incompetence, then damn it, give me more. Who knows? If the GOP is incompetent enough, it might just end up reversing ALL the bad decisions by Bush AND Obama both.

New GOP motto - Restoring America to the people through incompetence.

They just got my vote. Death to the Patriot Act. Incompetence rules. :mrgreen:

Article is here.
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Are you please with a Democrat victory?
 
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VanceMack said:
Now read the facts...which is the Patriot Act hysteria is such foolishness...

Teen Ashton Lundeby Charged as an Adult for Bomb Threats | Threat Level | Wired.com
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Fair enough, apologies for the source. Here is another story, not a legitimate source, but an example of how the Patriot Act enables law enforcement to abuse the rights of American citizens. It is more than conceivable for this story to be true and I wouldn't be shocked if it were... 2600 NEWS: PHOTOGRAPHER ARRESTED FOR TAKING PICTURES OF VICE PRESIDENT'S HOTEL
 
I am just thrilled to see conservatives on this board that are aghast at this legislation. When the original version passed in 2001 I thought I was arguing with the world. When it was renewed in 2005, I found a handful of liberals to argue on my side.... now the opposition is more broad based, but still not sufficient.

The passage of this bill is an act of American cowardice. It was based on Valentine's day by people that lacked sufficient love and respect for our constitution.
 
Catawba said:
An idiotic concept, wouldn't you agree?
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No. But that's for a different topic... This one is about the police state we live in and how our basic rights are overruled by a false sense of security. But I do like how ideals like opposing the patriot act unites some of us on both the right, left, and center. It shows that both sides have good intentions for our country and our hearts are in the right place.
 
I was afraid of the Patriot act because we were told it would be used for detecting terrorists or on suspected terrorists and nothing more.

Then it was used in a corruption case involving the Cheetah Club owner and some City officials in San Diego.

The FBI used the On Star system in a Hummer II to listen to the owner and others as they drove from Vegas to San Diego.

It resulted in a number of convictions and proved we were lied to.

Patriot act TWO has provisions that go even farther.

I am glad to see it go
 
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