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Obama Health-Care Reform Act Ruled Unconstitutional(edited)

Re: Obamacare Unconstitutional

Sgt Meowenstein;1059257768]Then stop acting like illegals are the only problem.
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Have a reading comprehension problem? I said that illegals are A problem and showed the cost to my county alone. Why didn't Obama and the Congress break down the costs of healthcare in this country before passing a law that no one read?


I just did. A couple of them, in fact. But since you can't read, let me try this again.

Here are more polls that support my argument:
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And I posted the Real Clear Politics side showing all the polls.




There's that old "I'm more American than you" conservative argument. I was wondering when you'd pull it out.
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If the shoe fits, wear it. Doesn't look to me like you have a clue as to what our Founders created.


This is the greatest country on the face of the earth. I believe that the gov't has a responsibility to give its citizens access to affordable, top-notch health care. I'm sorry you disagree; but that doesn't make me any less of an American than you
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This is the greatest country on the face of the earth because of the freedoms we have. Obamacare takes away one of those freedoms, freedom of choice. Healthcare isn't a govt. responsibility, it is a personal responsibility. give the govt the ability for that kind of mandate, what is nexts?

I asked you how many people in this country cannot afford healthcare and you ignored the question. Do some research and get back to me then tell me why it is the Governments role to pass a massive entitlement program to take care of that few of a number?
 
Re: Obamacare Unconstitutional

Sgt Meowenstein said:
This is the greatest country on the face of the earth. I believe that the gov't has a responsibility to give its citizens access to affordable, top-notch health care. I'm sorry you disagree; but that doesn't make me any less of an American than you.
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The part you left out is you believe the gov't has the right to force people to buy it or be penalized, whether or not it's affordable or not, whether it's top-notch and you use vague and subjective terms like "affordable" and "top-notch", which mean nothing. It comes down to you believe in gov't usurpation of individual rights for what ideologically is percieved by progressive liberals as "for your own good". Constitutional or not, which is a sheeple mind set based on some hive morality. I'm sorry you don't see it that way but that's what it is. Those who disagree with you want market based competition, want individual responsibility and rights to out weigh those of the collective, and want it based on the Constitution. If the SCOTUS deems it Constitutional, you'll have 1 out of 3.
 
Re: Obamacare Unconstitutional

Sgt Meowenstein said:
Then stop acting like illegals are the only problem.



Pot, meet kettle.



I just did. A couple of them, in fact. But since you can't read, let me try this again.

Here are more polls that support my argument:









There's that old "I'm more American than you" conservative argument. I was wondering when you'd pull it out.



This is the greatest country on the face of the earth. I believe that the gov't has a responsibility to give its citizens access to affordable, top-notch health care. I'm sorry you disagree; but that doesn't make me any less of an American than you.
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overconfidence.gif
 
Re: Obamacare Unconstitutional

ptif219 said:
It would not save money it would cost money. Tax payers would end up paying more. Look at England that can no longer pay for their government health care. Government does never lower the cost of anything
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That's because you're comparing the level of pre-reform government spending with the level of post-reform government spending. I'm talking about OVERALL health care spending. That's a better measure of the economic viability of the system, because even though your taxes would go up under a single-payer system or a public option, your own personal health care premiums would decline.

The US spends 16% of its GDP on health care expenditures (including both public and private spending). The next-highest countries spend only 11%, and the OECD average is a mere 8%. Despite this, we don't seem to have any unambiguous advantage in the quality of our health care. That's why it strains credibility to claim that emulating some of the features of other countries' health care systems would increase our costs.
 
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Re: Obamacare Unconstitutional

Kandahar said:
That's because you're comparing the level of pre-reform government spending with the level of post-reform government spending. I'm talking about OVERALL health care spending. That's a better measure of the economic viability of the system, because even though your taxes would go up under a single-payer system or a public option, your own personal health care premiums would decline.

The US spends 16% of its GDP on health care expenditures (including both public and private spending). The next-highest countries spend only 11%, and the OECD average is a mere 8%. Despite this, we don't seem to have any unambiguous advantage in the quality of our health care. That's why it strains credibility to claim that emulating some of the features of other countries' health care systems would increase our costs.
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You miss a basic point, the U.S. economy is mostly private sector whereas most other countries has a strong public sector. Much of the spending on healthcare in this country is done by the private sector and thus doesn't affect taxes whereas most of the spending in other countries is actual govt. thus taxpayer expenditures. That is apples vs. oranges.

As for the point however no one has addressed the costs of healthcare in this country. until you do that real reform and effective healthcare cannot be implemented here. This issue remains that this is all about access thus control on the part of this Administration. Get everyone covered and then when it fails the people are dependent on liberalism thus you end up getting exactly what liberals want, a massive govt. that controls people's lives.
 
Re: Obamacare Unconstitutional

Conservative said:
Have a reading comprehension problem?
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Nope. Having a problem understanding that illegals aren't the only problem?

Conservative said:
And I posted the Real Clear Politics side showing all the polls.
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And I posted several polls that show support for the public option. So, what's your point?

Conservative said:
If the shoe fits, wear it. Doesn't look to me like you have a clue as to what our Founders created.
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So, because I disagree with you, I'm less of an American than you? Typical con. Thanks for probing my point. Commie.

Conservative said:
This is the greatest country on the face of the earth because of the freedoms we have. Obamacare takes away one of those freedoms, freedom of choice. Healthcare isn't a govt. responsibility, it is a personal responsibility. give the govt the ability for that kind of mandate, what is nexts?
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Too bad a majority of Americans disagree with you.

Conservative said:
I asked you how many people in this country cannot afford healthcare and you ignored the question. Do some research and get back to me then tell me why it is the Governments role to pass a massive entitlement program to take care of that few of a number?
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Really? 50 million uninsured people is a small number to you? And you think those 50 million people don't deserve health insurance? Good to know.

More than 50 million people were uninsured last year, almost one in six U.S. residents, the Census Bureau reported Thursday. The percentage with private insurance was the lowest since the government began keeping data in 1987.

Number of uninsured Americans rises to 50.7 million - USATODAY.com
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Re: Obamacare Unconstitutional

Conservative said:
You miss a basic point, the U.S. economy is mostly private sector whereas most other countries has a strong public sector. Much of the spending on healthcare in this country is done by the private sector and thus doesn't affect taxes whereas most of the spending in other countries is actual govt. thus taxpayer expenditures. That is apples vs. oranges.

As for the point however no one has addressed the costs of healthcare in this country. until you do that real reform and effective healthcare cannot be implemented here. This issue remains that this is all about access thus control on the part of this Administration. Get everyone covered and then when it fails the people are dependent on liberalism thus you end up getting exactly what liberals want, a massive govt. that controls people's lives.
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As if the private sector doesn't try to control people's lives.
 
Re: Obamacare Unconstitutional

Ockham said:
The part you left out is you believe the gov't has the right to force people to buy it or be penalized, whether or not it's affordable or not, whether it's top-notch and you use vague and subjective terms like "affordable" and "top-notch", which mean nothing. It comes down to you believe in gov't usurpation of individual rights for what ideologically is percieved by progressive liberals as "for your own good". Constitutional or not, which is a sheeple mind set based on some hive morality. I'm sorry you don't see it that way but that's what it is. Those who disagree with you want market based competition, want individual responsibility and rights to out weigh those of the collective, and want it based on the Constitution. If the SCOTUS deems it Constitutional, you'll have 1 out of 3.
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This is essentially your argument: I'm a conservative. I'm right. You're wrong. You hate America. I don't.

How am I supposed to argue with an extreme conservative who only sees things his way? Answer: I can't. You'll never convince me to abandon my ideals. Unless you can say something other than "You're wrong, I'm right", then I'm done arguing with you.
 
Re: Obamacare Unconstitutional

Conservative said:
You miss a basic point, the U.S. economy is mostly private sector whereas most other countries has a strong public sector. Much of the spending on healthcare in this country is done by the private sector and thus doesn't affect taxes whereas most of the spending in other countries is actual govt. thus taxpayer expenditures. That is apples vs. oranges.
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No it's not. Those numbers included ALL health care spending in all countries...public AND private. In the US, it's mostly private with a little bit of public. In many European countries, it's mostly public with a little bit of private. The TOTAL expenditures on health care are far higher here than in any other OECD country.

If we had a public option and it increased the average tax bill by, say, $1,000 while reducing the average premium by $1,500, I'd call that a reduction in costs.

Conservative said:
As for the point however no one has addressed the costs of healthcare in this country. until you do that real reform and effective healthcare cannot be implemented here. This issue remains that this is all about access thus control on the part of this Administration. Get everyone covered and then when it fails the people are dependent on liberalism thus you end up getting exactly what liberals want, a massive govt. that controls people's lives.
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Most other OECD countries have shown that you can give everyone access, reduce total costs, and have no worse health outcomes than we do here. Sounds like they have something we might learn from, but instead your idea of "real reform" is to move in the OPPOSITE direction of all these success stories.
 
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Re: Obamacare Unconstitutional

Sgt Meowenstein;1059257948]Nope. Having a problem understanding that illegals aren't the only problem?
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Never said they were


And I posted several polls that show support for the public option. So, what's your point?
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The point is that respected polls show that by far a majority support repeal as do the election results of November.


So, because I disagree with you, I'm less of an American than you? Typical con. Thanks for probing my point. Commie
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.

It just shows that you don't have a clue as to the foundation upon which this country was built and our Founders.



Too bad a majority of Americans disagree with you.
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Prove it


Really? 50 million uninsured people is a small number to you? And you think those 50 million people don't deserve health insurance? Good to know.
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What I see is someone buying the propaganda? Break down those 50 million for us? The leftwing blogs are making a fool of you and you will be the one ending up dependent on them. Good luck with that. There aren't 50 million Americans that cannot afford healthcare, aren't eligible for healthcare, or don't qualify for existing programs. Get the actual number and remember I always accept apologies
 
Re: Obamacare Unconstitutional

independent_thinker2002 said:
As if the private sector doesn't try to control people's lives.
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LOL, as if you don't have the freedom to move within the private sector. Try that with the public sector. You see you have a problem, you want the govt. to provide only the services you want even if it violates the Constitution. The fact is you cannot get your state to do what you want so you want to spread your misery equally to everyone else.
 
Re: Obamacare Unconstitutional

Sgt Meowenstein said:
So, because I disagree with you, I'm less of an American than you? Typical con. Thanks for probing my point. Commie.
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Resorting to name calling already? But no, you're not less American you're just confused.

Sgt Meowenstein said:
Too bad a majority of Americans disagree with you.
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Polls showed a majority of American's didn't want Obamacare to be passed in the first place, it still happened though didn't it. Polls are so yesterday, it's now the courts decision.

Sgt Meowenstein said:
Really? 50 million uninsured people is a small number to you? And you think those 50 million people don't deserve health insurance? Good to know.
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Deserve? They have the ability to purchase health care the same as anyone else - no one's preventing them.
 
Re: Obamacare Unconstitutional

Conservative said:
LOL, as if you don't have the freedom to move within the private sector. Try that with the public sector. You see you have a problem, you want the govt. to provide only the services you want even if it violates the Constitution. The fact is you cannot get your state to do what you want so you want to spread your misery equally to everyone else.
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Well, you stupidly assume that I am miserable. That is not the case. But let's not pretend that private companies profiting off of refusal of service when people are actually miserable promotes the general welfare.

Do you support the repeal of the Americans with Disabilities Act because it tells the private sector that they have to make their businesses accessible to those with disabilities?
 
Re: Obamacare Unconstitutional

Kandahar;1059257976]No it's not. Those numbers included ALL health care spending in all countries...public AND private. In the US, it's mostly private with a little bit of public. In many European countries, it's mostly public with a little bit of private. The TOTAL expenditures on health care are far higher here than in any other OECD country.
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It does appear that you and far too many others don't understand the components of our GDP and that of other countries. If a private business spends a dollar on healthcare how does that affect you? Then compare that to the public sector funded by tax dollars. Learn the components of GDP when making the comparison between countries.

If we had a public option and it increased the average tax bill by, say, $1,000 while reducing the average premium by $1,500, I'd call that a reduction in costs.
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The countries of Europe have a single payer, have their costs dropped? Does it matter what you pay if you cannot get service? In MA the wait for services is weeks not days. Have the costs in MA gone up or down? You see, it has nothing really to do with costs, only access. Control comes next.


Most other OECD countries have shown that you can give everyone access, reduce total costs, and have no worse health outcomes than we do here. Sounds like they have something we might learn from, but instead your idea of "real reform" is to move in the OPPOSITE direction of all these success stories.
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That is your opinion, there is no proof of that. As has been pointed out life expectancy isn't any better in foreign countries nor do any of those countries have 309 million people in land mass like this country along with the overall freedoms we have to destroy our own health. Other countries are trying to dismantle the single payer system, why. England!
 
Re: Obamacare Unconstitutional

Conservative said:
LOL, as if you don't have the freedom to move within the private sector.
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Except this romanticized view of the private sector doesn't actually exist in health care spending. Typically you do NOT have the freedom to move from one private health care provider to another. If you get insurance through your employer, you take whatever policy your employer tells you to take. Sure, you could switch employers, but that's enough of a hassle that it highly discourages mobility. Furthermore, many people will not switch jobs - even if they're stuck at a job they hate or suck at - because they don't want to be without health insurance for even a day.

But maybe you have more mobility if you don't get insurance through your employer, and just buy an individual plan, right? Wrong. Better hope you don't get sick, or you'll be wedded to that policy for the rest of your life. Any other individual plan will tell you to take a hike due to your preexisting condition, or just charge you so much that it's essentially a roundabout way of telling you to take a hike.

This "freedom to move within the private sector" is a myth. Unless you're 25 and healthy, you have at most a few options when it comes to buying health insurance.
 
Re: Obamacare Unconstitutional

independent_thinker2002 said:
Well, you stupidly assume that I am miserable. That is not the case. But let's not pretend that private companies profiting off of refusal of service when people are actually miserable promotes the general welfare.

Do you support the repeal of the Americans with Disabilities Act because it tells the private sector that they have to make their businesses accessible to those with disabilities?
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If you aren't miserable why are you trying to trust your vision of healthcare on everyone else since miserable are the people who cannot get service in those universal healthcare countries. Your failure to sell your position to your state says it all. If you cannot sell it in your state, why should the Federal Govt. implement it?
 
Re: Obamacare Unconstitutional

Kandahar said:
Except this romanticized view of the private sector doesn't actually exist in health care spending. Typically you do NOT have the freedom to move from one private health care provider to another. If you get insurance through your employer, you take whatever policy your employer tells you to take. Sure, you could switch employers, but that's enough of a hassle that it highly discourages mobility. Furthermore, many people will not switch jobs - even if they're stuck at a job they hate or suck at - because they don't want to be without health insurance for even a day.

But maybe you have more mobility if you don't get insurance through your employer, and just buy an individual plan, right? Wrong. Better hope you don't get sick, or you'll be wedded to that policy for the rest of your life. Any other individual plan will tell you to take a hike due to your preexisting condition, or just charge you so much that it's essentially a roundabout way of telling you to take a hike.

This "freedom to move within the private sector" is a myth. Unless you're 25 and healthy, you have at most a few options when it comes to buying health insurance.
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In addition to your points, if you switch employers and health insurance, you may run into pre-existin condition exclusions. Also, the private sector tells you which doctors you can go to.
 
Re: Obamacare Unconstitutional

Kandahar;1059258010]Except this romanticized view of the private sector doesn't actually exist in health care spending. Typically you do NOT have the freedom to move from one private health care provider to another. If you get insurance through your employer, you take whatever policy your employer tells you to take. Sure, you could switch employers, but that's enough of a hassle that it highly discourages mobility. Furthermore, many people will not switch jobs - even if they're stuck at a job they hate or suck at - because they don't want to be without health insurance for even a day.
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Right, personal responsibility is a bitch? I was looking for a job when I found the one I had for 35 years. During those 35 years I became very marketable and I was paid well to stay. If I were forced to change jobs it first wouldn't take me two years to find another one and i would accept personal responsibility with regard to healthcare. Losing a job doesn't mean losing healthcare. COBRA exists.


But maybe you have more mobility if you don't get insurance through your employer, and just buy an individual plan, right? Wrong. Better hope you don't get sick, or you'll be wedded to that policy for the rest of your life. Any other individual plan will tell you to take a hike due to your preexisting condition, or just charge you so much that it's essentially a roundabout way of telling you to take a hike.
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See above. your goal of the govt. protecting you from poor personal choices is quite telling.

This "freedom to move within the private sector" is a myth. Unless you're 25 and healthy, you have at most a few options when it comes to buying health insurance.
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Moved five times in my career, went where the job was. You seem to have the opinion that the business owes you a job and health insurance. Wrong, the business owes you an opportunity and nothing more
 
Re: Obamacare Unconstitutional

independent_thinker2002 said:
In addition to your points, if you switch employers and health insurance, you may run into pre-existin condition exclusions. Also, the private sector tells you which doctors you can go to.
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So you prefer the govt. doing it? What does a bureaucrat in D.C. know about the doctors in Illinois?
 
Re: Obamacare Unconstitutional

Conservative said:
If you aren't miserable why are you trying to trust your vision of healthcare on everyone else since miserable are the people who cannot get service in those universal healthcare countries. Your failure to sell your position to your state says it all. If you cannot sell it in your state, why should the Federal Govt. implement it?
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If the private sector is all that and a bag of chips then why don't the UHC countries switch?

Manufactured misery.
 
Re: Obamacare Unconstitutional

Conservative said:
So you prefer the govt. doing it? What does a bureaucrat in D.C. know about the doctors in Illinois?
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About as much as an accountant at the home office of an insurance company. Only they won't deny coverage in the name of record profits.
 
Re: Obamacare Unconstitutional

Conservative said:
Right, personal responsibility is a bitch? I was looking for a job when I found the one I had for 35 years. During those 35 years I became very marketable and I was paid well to stay. If I were forced to change jobs it first wouldn't take me two years to find another one and i would accept personal responsibility with regard to healthcare. Losing a job doesn't mean losing healthcare. COBRA exists.
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If I'm not mistaken, you're only eligible for COBRA if you are laid off...and even then your premiums increase drastically. I'm talking about people voluntarily switching jobs, in the "freedom to move within the private sector" sense that you described above. It's rare for someone to switch jobs due to their health care benefits.

Conservative said:
See above. your goal of the govt. protecting you from poor personal choices is quite telling.
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So if someone gets leukemia and can therefore never switch health care plans for the rest of their life due to their preexisting condition, that's a "poor personal choice"? On whose part?

Conservative said:
Moved five times in my career, went where the job was. You seem to have the opinion that the business owes you a job and health insurance. Wrong, the business owes you an opportunity and nothing more
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I don't think the business owes me health insurance. I'd be thrilled if health benefits were taxed as regular income, to spur employers to get out of the business of providing their employees with health insurance altogether.
 
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