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Obama Health-Care Reform Act Ruled Unconstitutional(edited)

Re: Obamacare Unconstitutional

In your opinion, was the invasion of Iraq constitutional?

It was approved by Congress; so, yes. But that doesn't mean that it was a just war. See the difference? I don 't like the war, but I don't think that it was unconstitutional. Conservatives call anything that they don't like 'unconstitutional', while simultaneously trying to change the Constitution to suit their ideology.
 
Re: Obamacare Unconstitutional

Kandahar;1059256943]Doesn't change the fact that the government can and has provided health care programs. They are entirely within the scope of the federal government's powers.

Providing it and mandating it are two different issues.


Most recent polls I've seen have concluded that most Americans either support the law, or oppose it on the grounds that it didn't go far enough. In any case, there certainly isn't the "overwhelming opposition" you claim. The numbers are fairly close.

Not according to the lasted Rasumussen Poll regarding repeal. Suggest you look it up.


I'd love to have a government plan. The government does not have a financial incentive to screw me like a for-profit health insurer does.

Right, the govt. just screws you to retain power and keep you dependent. We havea 14.1 trillion dollar debt, that is screwing you if you are a taxpayer.


And some cannot get insurance because they have a preexisting condition. Or they're stuck in a job that they can't leave because they'd lose their health insurance. And Medicaid does not begin to cover the health care needs of low-income people.

So we need Obamacare to cover pre-existing conditions? Why is healthcare insurance someone else's responsibility? You still haven't answered that question nor have you told me how this healthcare bill lowers costs, improves quality, and adds hospitals and doctors?


Considering just about every other developed country in the world has far MORE government regulation of health insurers than we do, and far lower costs than we do, I'd say that's highly unlikely.

Proof? That is your opinion, suggest doing some research and identifying all the costs before proposing massive expansion of the govt.


OK, maybe that adds a few percent to total health care costs.

Have you checked what healthcare companies make in terms of profit percentages since percentages mean so much to you?


OK, that adds maybe a few more percent. Keep going. Our health care costs per capita are nearly 50% above the next-highest nations (Switzerland & France).

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We have 309 million Americans and liberals love to compare per capita, on a percentage basis of GDP because for some reason that is supposed to mean something. With that "big" difference explain to me why the life expectency is just as high in this country as those other countries?



How does that add to our health care costs? If anything, that's a DRAG on health care costs because it prevents people from getting new and expensive treatments.

You have given us no justification for someone else paying for your health insurance.


You just trotted out a list of things you don't like about health care costs, without even bothering to assess how they impact cost. :roll

Everything I listed affects costs and until they are addressed your massive expansion of the govt. is unjustified. Govt. is ill equiped to handle anything of this size thus it is a state and local responsibility. You cannot seem to sell it in the states so you want the govt. to force upon everyone else something YOU think is necessary. Where do the govt. mandates stop in a govt. based upon individual freedoms and a small central govt. model? 14.1 trillion dollar debt later with most of that due to govt. social engineering.

Nice try, now offer a program that reduces costs, increases quality, and quantity.
 
Re: Obamacare Unconstitutional

I accept your surrender.

What surrender? I said that conservatives call things unconstitutional when they don't like them. I was responding to another poster who said a similar thing about liberals. I'm sure you can find plenty of examples of liberals calling things unconstitutional. So what? I can find plenty of examples that support my point. But I'm not going back and forth with pointless posts. If I don't play your pointless game, I lose? Fine, I lose. What other petty points would you like me to address?
 
Re: Obamacare Unconstitutional

Sgt Meowenstein;1059257476]Yeah, I'm sure all unpaid ER bills, which are passed on to the tax payer, are due to illegal aliens. "Forcing" people to buy insurance is not a violation of the Constitution. Obama's people are betting that the commerce cause covers them. The SCOTUS will decide.


I just told you, $600,000 alone was due to illegal aliens in my county alone. You don't like the number so you ignore it. Obama is betting that our founders supported Federal Mandates for not buying something. You are way off base here and the only ones that will support it are the rabid liberals who want a massive central govt. and less freedom for the individual. 5-4 vote striking the bill.



Commerce clause.

Wrong, individual healthcare has nothing to do with commerce.


There you go again acting like your right-wing ideology is the only thing that matters. I do believe that the gov't plays an important role in our lives. It is not just my opinion that the HC law is making things better for some Americans. It is also the opinions of those who have taken advantage of the provisions that are already in place.


Yet the polls show a large majority want it repealed. This is a local and state issue, not a Federal Issue. You are entitled to your opinion but your live for today ideology ignores history and govt. results for providing social programs.

I couldn't care less what Rasmussen says. Though every conservative loves to use Rasmussen, they're unreliable. When every other poll has Obama's approval numbers at or over 50%, Rasmussen has him barely breaking 45%. Anyway, I don't know why you're bringing them up. First of all, I never said that a majority of Americans support single payer. Try to pay attention. What I said is that a majority of Americans support the public option. That is a fact. Look at any poll. Even your beloved Rasmussen shows support for the public option.

You obviously don't care about history either and the 14.1 trillion dollar debt. Stop reading Media Matters and look at the election results of Nov. Post a poll showing that the American people support the public option and then consider the make up of that poll.



BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Affordable drugs came from Bush? I guess that's why drugs are still expensive. But Bush did add a lot of money to the deficit with his unfunded plan. Ask the seniors who have received their $250 checks for prescriptions thanks to the new HC law. And what costs will come from children staying on their parents' health plans?

Drug costs have dropped due to the Bush Part D program, you don't like it, tough, the free market works. You really don't seem to have a clue as to what personal responsibility is and the role of the govt. Too bad.

I'm out of my league? That's grand coming from someone who doesn't even know that provisions of the HC law have gone into effect. I'll tell you what, genius, get back to me when you have a clue.

Obviously you don't pay for your healthcare because I certainly know that some provisions have gone into effect, my healthcare costs went up to pay for them. Sorry but you are on the wrong side of this issue and the foundation upon which this country was built.
 
Re: Obamacare Unconstitutional

What surrender? I said that conservatives call things unconstitutional when they don't like them. I was responding to another poster who said a similar thing about liberals. I'm sure you can find plenty of examples of liberals calling things unconstitutional. So what? I can find plenty of examples that support my point. But I'm not going back and forth with pointless posts. If I don't play your pointless game, I lose? Fine, I lose. What other petty points would you like me to address?

Since you are in favor of mandates and believe them to be constitutional, I was simply wondering how you felt about a mandate that required citizens to own a firearm.

That's all.
 
So, if people don't have to buy health care, but insurance companies can't deny coverage, how's that going to work?

And if young adults show up to the ER with type 2 diabetes, do we just put them on hospice care?

From now on, Medicare and Medicaid only covers hospice.

Again, think instead of feeling, how many of those young people qualify for existing programs or are eligible for a healthcare program that they chose not to partisipate in? How many people in this country truly cannot afford healthcare? You seem to think that healthcare insurance is a civil right. Where is healthcare defined in the Constitution and why the passion to force someone to buy a health insurance policy? 5-4 decision striking the bill if it gets that far.
 
Good, then all mandates will be thrown out. We'll no longer have to buy auto insurance. Perhaps we'll no longer have to pay income tax.


Auto Insurance isn't for you it is to protect the other guy. I suggest you read the decision before showing how little you know about the Commerce clause.
 
Re: Obamacare Unconstitutional

I just told you, $600,000 alone was due to illegal aliens in my county alone. You don't like the number so you ignore it.

I didn't ignore the numbers. But illegals aren't the only people skipping out on ER bills.


Wrong, individual healthcare has nothing to do with commerce.

You keep confusing your opinion with fact. The decision lies with the SCOTUS.

Yet the polls show a large majority want it repealed. This is a local and state issue, not a Federal Issue. You are entitled to your opinion but your live for today ideology ignores history and govt. results for providing social programs.

You're entitled to your opinion as well - no matter how wrong you are. A majority of Americans do not support repeal. That is complete BS.

Only 25 percent of people polled now support repealing the health care law, according to an Associated Press-GfK poll out Monday, compared to 46 percent on Jan. 7

Poll: Support for Health Care Repeal Drops | The Rundown News Blog | PBS NewsHour | PBS

More Americans want to keep the sweeping health care reform legislation passed last year than want to repeal it, according to a new CBS News/New York Times survey. Forty-eight percent of Americans say they want to keep the law in place, while 40 percent want to see it repealed.

Poll: More Want to Keep Health Care Law Than Want to Repeal It - Political Hotsheet - CBS News

You obviously don't care about history either and the 14.1 trillion dollar debt. Stop reading Media Matters and look at the election results of Nov. Post a poll showing that the American people support the public option and then consider the make up of that poll.

And you are obviously entrenched in right-wing ideology. But unfortunately for you, there is more than one way of looking at things. I already showed that the public support the public option. You just don't like the results.


Obviously you don't pay for your healthcare because I certainly know that some provisions have gone into effect, my healthcare costs went up to pay for them. Sorry but you are on the wrong side of this issue and the foundation upon which this country was built.

You don't know **** about me. Stop making assumptions. I pay for my HC. Care to prove me wrong? Sorry, but you are just a right-wing ideologue. I can't help you.
 
Re: Obamacare Unconstitutional

Sgt Meowenstein;1059257576]I didn't ignore the numbers. But illegals aren't the only people skipping out on ER bills.

No, they aren't but they are part of the problem, thus a cost that has yet to be identified by the Obama Administration. Until you address the costs how do you solve the problem. A lot of people use the ER that have insurance and thus the bills are paid. Have you bothered to check the results in MA regarding their universal program? It is an eye opener and probably why Obama isn't touting its success since Obamacare was modeled after it.



You keep confusing your opinion with fact. The decision lies with the SCOTUS.

hasn't stopped you from speculating, has it?


You're entitled to your opinion as well - no matter how wrong you are. A majority of Americans do not support repeal. That is complete BS.

Then cite for me a reputable poll supporting your statement

And you are obviously entrenched in right-wing ideology. But unfortunately for you, there is more than one way of looking at things. I already showed that the public support the public option. You just don't like the results.

Guess anything that disagrees with you is right wing ideology. Interesting how that ideology is more closely aligned with the Founders than yours. Name for me one country in the world where the public option has lowered costs?



You don't know **** about me. Stop making assumptions. I pay for my HC. Care to prove me wrong? Sorry, but you are just a right-wing ideologue. I can't help you.

If you pay for your healthcare then why shouldn't others? Why the passion to have the govt. take your money and give it to someone else? Handle it locally and eliminate the middleman.
 
Re: Obamacare Unconstitutional

The only way the act isn't the government authorized destruction of an entire private industry is the inclusion of the mandate.

On the flip side, the mandate is completely unconstitutional.

So the law had an unconstitutional provision to keep it from doing something completely against the spirit of what the constitution establishs the government to be doing.

Throw the whole god damn thing out.
 
Re: Obamacare Unconstitutional

What is amazing is that Obamacare was killed in its entirety in the recent District Court decision because it wasn't possible to isolate the mandate provision. The reason the mandate couldn't be isolated and excised is because Obamacare lacked a severability clause that could have saved the rest of the law. Earlier drafts of Obamacare did have a severability clause, but the ball got dropped somewhere along the line. This is what happens when laws get passed without being read.
 
Good, then all mandates will be thrown out. We'll no longer have to buy auto insurance. Perhaps we'll no longer have to pay income tax.

Still using this ridiculous argument.

You don't have to buy auto-insurance. If I lived and worked in Washington DC and didn't have any family living in the state, I wouldn't have it. I'd have public transportation, my bike, or a scooter to take me wherever I needed to go.

You only have teo buy auto-insurance if you're wanting to register a vehicle with the federal government to drive it on federally maintained roads.

In regards to the income tax, its been found constitutional by courts based on the fact that the constitution allows for the levying of taxes.
 
Re: Obamacare Unconstitutional

Calm down, champ. I never said that Obama's people were the authority of anything constitutional. What I meant is that he had a smart people working with him. They're betting that the mandate is constitutional.

If Obama's "people" are so smart, how did they forget to put a severability clause into the health care reform bill ???

Every first year law student knows to put severability into every contract and legal document. Because they left it out, this entire bill has been ruled unconstitutional.
 
Re: Obamacare Unconstitutional

The fact is tort reform is a tiny fraction of medical costs. I don't see why you think posting the above changes that.
Because what you see as a tiny fraction are only the costs which are seen. The unseen costs of insurance malpractice insurance rates, legal fees, and the number of doctors who retire prematurely due to not being able or willing to pay such high premiums are not involved in the calculation.

A person who actually thinks tort reform will significantly change medical costs is ignorant.
Actually it's the other way around... by not understanding or wanting to understand the underlying costs (cause/effects) of tort reform, a person who argues only about the seen monies is ignorant. :2wave:
 
Re: Obamacare Unconstitutional

If the government setup a medicare/medicaid system for all, I wouldn't be happy with it. I think it would reslt in lower quality of care. Additionally, I think it would have zero chance of passing in the current congress. However, I don't believe that it would be unconstitutional.

I guess it's out of the question for the Federal governments healthcare to compete in the market place with the rest of the private sector - hence the need for a mandate. Wonder what would happen if the Fed passed a law allowing interstate purchase of health care, and then put the Obamacare out there without a mandate? That way the poor can purchase from the Fed and the Fed would have to compete and keep their books in the black without taxpayer subsidy. Somehow I think that would be the shortest living healthcare plan evah.
 
Re: Obamacare Unconstitutional

I have to laugh whenever I see another conservative denying that people are denied life-saving procedures because they either don't have health insurance or their insurers won't cover the procedure. Conservatives seem to think that everything is just fine. I guess that's why Republicans did nothing to fix the HC system during all of those years that they controlled both houses of Congress and the White House.

You want to help those who aren't covered, you pay for it. Me, I want it left up to the states and the company's in those states. Let them compete for the lowest prices to drive down costs and keep federal oversight to make sure they are playing fair. Don't mandate anything - it's heavy handed, inappropriate and as we shall see - probably unconstitutional. The problem is, Obamacare cannot compete and survive in the open market - therefore the need for a mandate, to make the pool large enough so it doesn't cave in on itself from the start. :shrug:
 
Re: Obamacare Unconstitutional

I have to laugh whenever I see another conservative denying that people are denied life-saving procedures because they either don't have health insurance or their insurers won't cover the procedure. Conservatives seem to think that everything is just fine. I guess that's why Republicans did nothing to fix the HC system during all of those years that they controlled both houses of Congress and the White House.

My son has medicaid I just paid $2500 for dental it does not cover. This is what we will get with Obama care substandard care at higher costs
 
Re: Obamacare Unconstitutional

it turns out our vaunted former editor of harvard law review isn't so very well versed, after all:

In his 78-page ruling, Judge Vinson wrote that the entire law must be voided because the individual insurance mandate is "not severable" from the rest of the law. Some laws contain what's known as a severability clause that says the rest of the law stands should a judge strike down a piece of it. But Democrats left it out.

some fodder for you constitutional scholars, 60 second clickers:

Under the Obama administration's logic, [Vinson] wrote, "Congress could require that everyone above a certain income threshold buy a General Motors automobile—now partially government-owned—because those who do not buy GM cars (or those who buy foreign cars) are adversely impacting commerce and a taxpayer-subsidized business."

meanwhile, politics proceeds:

Now even some Democrats who voted for the overhaul are contemplating whether Congress should strip out the so-called individual mandate, a once unthinkable scenario since the provision is seen as the backbone of the law. Since the law requires insurance companies to accept all comers, even people who are already sick, it requires healthy people to buy coverage as well.

Judge Rejects Health Law - WSJ.com

seeya on the floor, folks
 
So, we go back to paying for the freeloaders who show up at the ER w/o coverage?

He's an activist judge alright, but for what side.

So everyone that goes to the ER is a freeloader without insurance? have you bothered to do any research on what is going on in Massachuetts right now with their universal healthcare program? Why are you ignoring the results? obama sure is because that is the model for Obamacare. Results don't matter because for a liberal it is all about access no matter the cost or poor service.
 
Re: Obamacare Unconstitutional

No, they aren't but they are part of the problem

Then stop acting like illegals are the only problem.

hasn't stopped you from speculating, has it?

Pot, meet kettle.

Then cite for me a reputable poll supporting your statement [that Americans support a public option]

I just did. A couple of them, in fact. But since you can't read, let me try this again.

Here are more polls that support my argument:

Here are some of the results of the telephone survey of 2,999 households called from November 9-17 as part of the Thomson Reuters PULSE Healthcare Survey:

* Believe in public option: 59.9 percent yes, 40.1 percent no.

* 86 percent of Democrats support the public option versus 57 percent of Independents and 33 percent of Republicans.

Most in U.S. want public health option: poll | Reuters

The new CNN poll’s internals show that the public option is more popular than the Senate health care proposal by a whopping 17 point difference.

The poll finds that only 36% favor the Senate proposal, versus 61% who oppose it.

By contrast, the poll finds that 53% favor the public option, versus 46% who oppose it.

Poll: Public Option Way More Popular Than Senate Health Care Propsal | The Plum Line

When asked how important they thought it was for Congress to work on “establishment of a public option that would give individuals a choice between government provided health insurance or private health insurance,” 67 percent of Americans rated this as an important topic to address. This finding is even more striking given the fact that 59 percent of those in favor of repealing the health care reform legislation rated the public option as important to pursue. Another surprise is that 67 percent of Republicans and 59 percent of Independents also agreed that the public option was an important topic to be addressed by Congress.

Wonk Room » POLL: 59% Of Those In Favor Of Repeal Want Congress To Pursue The Public Option

Guess anything that disagrees with you is right wing ideology. Interesting how that ideology is more closely aligned with the Founders than yours.

There's that old "I'm more American than you" conservative argument. I was wondering when you'd pull it out.

If you pay for your healthcare then why shouldn't others? Why the passion to have the govt. take your money and give it to someone else? Handle it locally and eliminate the middleman.

This is the greatest country on the face of the earth. I believe that the gov't has a responsibility to give its citizens access to affordable, top-notch health care. I'm sorry you disagree; but that doesn't make me any less of an American than you.
 
Re: Obamacare Unconstitutional

From an economic standpoint, you'd still have the free rider problem if you did it at the state level, just like you would if you didn't require healthy people to buy insurance. Suppose that one state decides to cover all its residents...so you wait until you get sick, then you move to that state to take advantage of the coverage. This drives up the cost of insurance, which discourages healthy people from moving to that state, which further drives up the cost of insurance, etc. It's just a slightly less exaggerated version of the same problem associated with trying to end preexisting conditions without an individual mandate.

From a logistical standpoint, the biggest reason to do it at the federal level is simply because it's less of a pain in the ass to have one standard than to have 50 standards. You may discount this as unimportant, but a sizable fraction of all health care spending goes to pushing paper and bureaucratic compliance with various government agencies and insurance companies. Consolidating it all in one place can reduce these costs.

Moving from state to state is so eashy these days. Of course there are no residency requirements.
 
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