- Joined
- Jun 10, 2005
- Messages
- 26,879
- Reaction score
- 12,681
- Location
- Highlands Ranch, CO
- Gender
- Male
- Political Leaning
- Independent
But what's the point of this? You aren't GOING to eliminate Islam from the world, no matter how much you wish you could. So what's the point of complaining about how horrible it is, other than to make yourself feel superior?
You cannot address an issue if you continue to deny the issue. The point is to make it more manageable. And aside from their economic stations, they have to address their religion. Pretending that religion is not the key ingredient in their problem is exactly why this struggle will be harder and longer than it has to be.
...and it's not exactly the West that fancies itself as superior. Isn't God supposed to be on their righteous side? Isn't it the Sunni Arab that looks down on all other Muslim tribes? Isn't it the Sunni tribe that levied taxes upon non-Muslims throughout history? Did you know that it was the Arab slave trade, in accordance to Muhammad prescription, that identified non-Christian/non-Jews/non-Muslims as ther only acceptable source for slavery, which meant the unaffiliated black? And that Europeans identified blacks south of the northern regions in Africa as the Atlantic Slave Trade source to stay clear of black Muslim Arabs as a result? Let's not pretend that these people are hapless victims of the outside world and that they haven't lifted "racism" and superiority to a superhuman level. And before you dismiss these type things as insignificant in the year 2011, let's also remember that these people largely live within their history.
Disagree. If the countries were better developed economically and didn't radiate a sense of hopelessness and poverty, there would be far fewer people willing to throw their lives away to lash out against some perceived enemy. The fact that there are ALREADY plenty of Muslim countries that fit this description should be evidence of that.
Well, you're not disagreeing with me. I agree with your first sentence. I have argued this enough to the dimwitted masses here on this site and this is why I stated above that the point is to make this more manageable (and yes this damn well means a successful Iraq in the heart of the Sunni Arab world). But your last sentence still misses the mark and I really don't know why you keep doing this. Indonesia and these other Muslim nations you keep holding up have absolutely nothing to do with the Sunni heartland of the Middle East. I have tried to make this point to you before.....
It is an absolute fact that the further people and nations get from Mecca, the healthier they appear. Look at the globe. This is a general rule. It is true for individuals, governments, and religions. I believe this has absolutely everything to do with the concentrated Sunni tribe. There is no coincidence that, when the Sunni tribe lost stewardship of Islam to the Ottoman's, the Sunni Arabs locked down all scientific and philosophical study in the region for all Muslims. There is no coincidence that even as the Ottoman Turks tried to move Islam into the modern future, it was the Sunni elders in the heartland that continually managed to prevent all reformation. There is no coincidence that in Sudan and Iraq it was the Sunni tribe that orchestrated mass slaughter of their fellow non-Arab Muslims. and there is no coincidence that Iraq's progressing democracy is absolutely due to its government not being of largely Sunni membership, but largely Shia. Is it a coincidence that the freest Muslims in the regions live under a Jewsih government and not a Sunni Arab one? And with all the money the U.S. has given to almost every single nation in this region over the last 65-ish years, only Israel maintains a sense of great prosperity and social justice for all its religious people?
Therefore, I submit that for politicial fear of actually looking into the Islamic culture, people miss the mark by pretending that any of these Middle Eastern Arab cultures, which have no recorded history prior to Islam, can look like Indonesia, a country as far removed from the source of the problem as possible. Sunni Arabs can thrive in democracy when they do not have a Sunni Arab government above them. The tendency to voice their superiority above all others has been historically traditional and has facilitated oppression and the fact that Muhammad was a Sunni doesn't help. Aside from their economic problems in the Middle East, all Muslims and non-Muslims have to contend with the entirely religious Sunni tribe who have no history prior to Muhammad. Pray in Arabic? Face Mecca? So God can't speak other languages or can't be everywhere as the Qu'ran states? I subscribe to the prospect that down through the centuries, people have unwittingly been offering their allegiances to the Sunni tribe rather than true faith in God. After all, is God in Rome and speaking Latin in the West still?
Look at another point. How much more healthier does Egypt, Turkey, and Iran look as compared to all the other Arab governments? While you may seek to show where they are imperfect, you must also admit that they have had a certain potential to experiment (and more nationalistic) that the others seem to not have. The big difference between them and the rest is that they have a recorded history prior to Islam. For the rest, Islam is the beginning.
Like what?
1) Christianity didn't start with government and therefore does not have the root prescription that it belongs in government (it would serve our Christian base to remember this). Before Muhammad died, government was Islam and directly after he died the Rashidun exploded Islam out into the world as government.
2) Jesus was an activist and died a "failure." Muhammad was an activist, judge, politician, general, and soveriegn. He died "successful."
These two very bold truths have facilitated the paths of both religions. The separation between church and state was always going to be easier in Christianity - "Render unto Caeser that which is Caeser and render unto God that which is God." Clear separation. No such scriptures exist in the Qu'ran because Islam was never not government and was alwasy supposed to be. Who was the orginial Caeser of Islam? It wasn't the first caliphate. There is also the manner in which Islam thrived when it was in its purity under the Prophet. It's Muhammad's life example that lends legitimacy towards Islamic warriors. The worse Islam's scene has become down through history is supposed to be evidence of how "Westernized" they were leaning.
You can sit back and blame their religion, which you can't change. Or you can consider solutions to things that CAN be changed, like poverty and state governance. Your.
Without adressing their cultural failures, which is absolutely rooted in Islam, they only address part of the problem.
I have a feeling that most of the countries in question will be far more amenable to "Gradually reduce your subsidies and tariffs, and improve free speech and women's rights" than they will to "Stop being so damn Muslim."
Well, this is actually the issue you seem to be avoiding. What is Muslim? According to the radical, he is Muslim. According to the extremist, he is Muslim. According to the modernist, he is Muslim. According to the secularist, he is Muslim. I'm sure all of Bashir's men on the slaughhter path considered themselves Muslim. And how Muslim is Al-Queda, the Tali-Ban, Hezbollah, etc.? Until this Sunni base of operations in the Middle East figures out what a "good" Muslim is, money won't buy peace. Religious reformation must also be a focus.
Last edited: