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Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

You have been proven wrong by Kandahars evidence already. The Iraqi democracy is a sham.

I responded to that.

There was a list of newspapers. Sorry, what does that prove?

It proves the free press and the variety of voices being published in Iraq.

It need not be recent and Egyptians could not possibly relate to Iraq. The Iraqi transformation process was not self instructed. It was imported by an occupying power and it resembled more like an instant microwave democracy rather than a "transition" which assumes there where some sort of long stretching process involving the people - something that was lacking in Iraq.

In Egypt, the situation is different. The people are here to impose the democracy and there united across political divides. It was not forced onto them and they have agreed that El Baradei should lead the revolt. The two "transitions" to democracy cannot possibly be contrasted.

Well, ElBaradei won't have much impact. The protesters will fail - they run out of food in a week and face organized opposition with the pro-M folks. Egypt may hold elections in 5 months but what about rewriting the constitution and reforming to a real democracy? Reforming existing institutions. These are the things that need doing for which Iraq is a model.

The fact that it is non-Arab is an irrelevant and pathetic excuse.

The Kemalist transition to Democracy is very very relevant to theocratic and autocratic regimes in the ME because its precisely the Kemalist reforms that dismantled the religious institutions and modernized them, devolved powers to executive branches and removed a head of state who had absolute sovereign (the boldened being most relevant to Egypt).

You cannot deny that Turkey is very popular in the Arab world and its popularity has resulted in many aspiring to its Democracy and state of economy among Arab states.

Ok, yeah, I agree, but Iraq being Arab is significant to other Arab people. I agree that Iraq is not the only model out there for Egyptians. Iraq being recent is very significant. It started the process of reform within the Arab ME.


No positive impacts, no.

NONE AT ALL?? Jeez, when your ideological, you're ideological to the end, aren't you?

And the protests in Tunisia and Egypt have nothing to do with Iraq. The only role model Iraq has played for these countries is to model a democratic system that resembles nothing like Iraq.

So a coalition of Shia, including conservative elements like Sadr, and the Kurds, who want Kirkuk, oil, and to be left alone as an quasi-independent region, as well as a strong negotiating position with the secular Sunni party led by Allawi is no role model? Their diplomatic position between Turkey and Iran and Saudi Arabia means nothing?
 
Not sure, but I would guess so. I haven't heard them mentioned specifically but clearly the anti-Mub movement they are making much of their very broadly-based support.

It seems to me that the Coptic situation is not the primary fault line in Egypt, whereas the Sunni/Shia/Kurd(Sunni) fault line is the most prevalent one in Iraq.

So what is the primary fault line in Egypt?

Economic (poor vs. rich), - partially. I think many anti-M people are poor, but then there are lawyers and doctors and engineers too.

Political (liberal vs. conservative) - mm, it is strange. The MB and the secular opp. are together. Does not seem to be the case that this is the fault line.

Cultural (urban vs rural) - don't think so.

Ethnic - don't think so

I really have no idea. It is like the Haves and the Have Nots, but not so driven by economic need since there are many liberal professionals opposed to the regime.

What do y'all think?
 
Al Jazeera being as biased as Foxnews...I'll check out El Arabiya.

What news source is not biased?

The fact that they may be biased does nothing to discredit the idea that they are able to play an independent role from regional governments, who rely on controlling information to keep their people down.
 
how about if we not presume to tell people how to run their countries? live and let live anyone?

Fair enough, Zyroh, but do you feel others will do the same?

How can you be certain others will 'live and let live'? That idea runs contrary to all human experience.
 
Well, the longer Mubarak hangs around in Egypt, the more power the Muslim Brotherhood is gaining. The time for the White House to drop its balls was last week so that we could maintain a sense of future for Egypt (and the rest of the region). Now the situation has become more volatile and mirky.
 
Really. I was under the impression that even in the U.S., the religious right exercises the tyranny of the majority on a pretty much continual basis. So, are we not yet capable of being a democracy, either?

The religious right elected Barrack Obama?

It must be the religious left you were thinking of.
 
Omg!! Catz that is what I have always felt like. Buts its something most do not want to see. But you Catz have said soomething I have always wanted to say. But you articulated it in such a way. Wow! That is all, Catz keep warm.

Thanks for making my day. :D
 
The religious right elected Barrack Obama?

It must be the religious left you were thinking of.

Was Barrack Obama not expected to pander to the religious right by showing that he was a church-attending Christian during the campaign? Oh wait. Yeah, he was.

You can call that "christian privilege." In other words, the ongoing pandering and accomodation that the religious right expects to see from anyone who wants to get elected in this country.
 
Well, the longer Mubarak hangs around in Egypt, the more power the Muslim Brotherhood is gaining. The time for the White House to drop its balls was last week so that we could maintain a sense of future for Egypt (and the rest of the region). Now the situation has become more volatile and mirky.

I didn't realize the WH had balls. :lamo j/k
 
Was Barrack Obama not expected to pander to the religious right by showing that he was a church-attending Christian during the campaign? Oh wait. Yeah, he was.

You can call that "christian privilege." In other words, the ongoing pandering and accomodation that the religious right expects to see from anyone who wants to get elected in this country.

The "religious" left doesn't get pandered too? :shock:
 
What is the official conservative position on this crisis? Half say we should stand by Mubarak because the alternative will be worse and the other half say we should support the protesters and their quest for democracy. You guys better see what FOX wants you to think so you can all get on the same page..
 
What is the official conservative position on this crisis? Half say we should stand by Mubarak because the alternative will be worse and the other half say we should support the protesters and their quest for democracy. You guys better see what FOX wants you to think so you can all get on the same page..

You don't know us do you? If you did you would see other points of view besides those you have enumerated. Some conservatives are neo-isolationists who believe in hands off; let the chips fall where they may. And other conservatives see the Egyptian crisis as fuel for the fire on the American homefront to be used against the Leftist Figurehead who rules America.
 
I responded to that.

You danced around it.

It proves the free press and the variety of voices being published in Iraq.

Here is a huge list of newspapers in Iran:

List of newspapers in Iran - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You cannot measure freedom of speech by the amount of media outlets.

Well, ElBaradei won't have much impact. The protesters will fail - they run out of food in a week and face organized opposition with the pro-M folks. Egypt may hold elections in 5 months but what about rewriting the constitution and reforming to a real democracy? Reforming existing institutions. These are the things that need doing for which Iraq is a model.

But what makes you think Iraq? Your only argument is....."because there Arab". Your speculating - and trying to score points for the US where it deserves none.


Ok, yeah, I agree, but Iraq being Arab is significant to other Arab people. I agree that Iraq is not the only model out there for Egyptians. Iraq being recent is very significant. It started the process of reform within the Arab ME.

No it didn't. For starters, it would probably have started a lot sooner if that was the case. It could have happened 5 years from now and you would have said the same. If Iraq was an exceptional Arab democracy worth aspiring to, i would have been inclined to agree with you.

NONE AT ALL?? Jeez, when your ideological, you're ideological to the end, aren't you?

Dont get me wrong, Iraqis are no longer living in fear of a dictator anymore. But considering the horrendous security issues there, its just turning into a game of "one thing to fear over another". It hasn't really benefited the region beside Iran and to an extent Turkey.

So a coalition of Shia, including conservative elements like Sadr, and the Kurds, who want Kirkuk, oil, and to be left alone as an quasi-independent region, as well as a strong negotiating position with the secular Sunni party led by Allawi is no role model? Their diplomatic position between Turkey and Iran and Saudi Arabia means nothing?

Its just your average unity government, we see it all the time in Lebanon etc. It will probably eventually collapse under its weight just like your average unity government too.
 
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You don't know us do you? If you did you would see other points of view besides those you have enumerated. Some conservatives are neo-isolationists who believe in hands off; let the chips fall where they may. And other conservatives see the Egyptian crisis as fuel for the fire on the American homefront to be used against the Leftist Figurehead who rules America.

Which one are you? I am a hands off kind of guy.
 
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Good political column from Jonah Goldberg of the National Review:

Hope Amid the Chaos in Cairo - Jonah Goldberg - National Review Online

This is a moment in which political decency and, eventually, freedom and democracy at least have a shot. That wasn’t true a month ago.

U.S. support of dictators is always shameful, even when it is occasionally necessary. But it is unforgivable when necessity gives way to mere complacency. We passed that point with Hosni Mubarak years ago. As Condoleezza Rice said, we traded freedom for stability in the Middle East and got neither. Now, the stability is collapsing, which at least makes freedom possible.

Unlike many pundits who’ve miraculously become Egyptologists overnight, I don’t pretend to know what will happen next. But I do know that you can’t get where we need to go without going through moments like this.

This is pretty much my opinion on the matter. None of us knows what will happen. But, the odds of something good happening are significantly greater than they were a week ago. The odds of something bad happening are also greater.

But something bad was already happening. The U.S. was propping up a thug who violated the human rights of his people. That's bad.

You can't make a cake without breaking a few eggs. Some eggs will get broken in Egypt over the next few months. None of us can predict what will be made with those eggs, though.

however, I think it's important to remember that, as it existed, the status quo was already broken and bad.
 
kaya'08 said:
Dont get me wrong, Iraqis are no longer living in fear of a dictator anymore. But considering the horrendous security issues there, its just turning into a game of "one thing to fear over another". It hasn't really benefited the region beside Iran and to an extent Turkey.

I mean this with complete respect to the memory of our boys who lost their lives for there country and all those brave and honorable men who served and came back home to us safely.
 
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What is the official conservative position on this crisis? Half say we should stand by Mubarak because the alternative will be worse and the other half say we should support the protesters and their quest for democracy. You guys better see what FOX wants you to think so you can all get on the same page..

The stick-by-Mubarak crowd are a lot like the George HW Bush crowd that said removing Saddam (during Desert Storm) would make things worse, only to find out we had to remove him later anyway. I believe that we should support the implimentation of democratic principles through reform, and thereby support the leader who plans to reform along these lines. Apparenly Mubarak hasn't been doing that for his tenure in office, and no one should be in power that long anyway.
 
The stick-by-Mubarak crowd are a lot like the George HW Bush crowd that said removing Saddam (during Desert Storm) would make things worse, only to find out we had to remove him later anyway. .

We had to? Man, you guys really are lockstep sheep, aren't you?

A trillion dollars and thousands of lives later, it turns out Old Man Bush was right.
 
You danced around it.

No, I showed the content behind the number. Not surprising for a new democracy. You don't expect it to be an 8 after 7 years do you? Before we can say it was a successful start? It was a successful start and the men and women who died there for it did not die in vain.



Here is a huge list of newspapers in Iran:

List of newspapers in Iran - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You cannot measure freedom of speech by the amount of media outlets.

Fair enough. But I know from translations that many of these publications are openly critical of the government and PM Maliki. That's probably not the case with the Iranian publications.

But what makes you think Iraq? Your only argument is....."because there Arab". Your speculating - and trying to score points for the US where it deserves none.

I am not merely trying to score points. I am asserting the recognition that what the US did was valuable and helpful to Iraq and the region. We acted appropriately. It is a model for the region.

I know Iraq is quiet in the news. Perhaps you are unaware of economic developments in Iraq brought about by a stable government and rule of law. Regionally, they are more aware of such developments.


No it didn't. For starters, it would probably have started a lot sooner if that was the case. It could have happened 5 years from now and you would have said the same. If Iraq was an exceptional Arab democracy worth aspiring to, i would have been inclined to agree with you.

Dont get me wrong, Iraqis are no longer living in fear of a dictator anymore. But considering the horrendous security issues there, its just turning into a game of "one thing to fear over another". It hasn't really benefited the region beside Iran and to an extent Turkey.

Its just your average unity government, we see it all the time in Lebanon etc. It will probably eventually collapse under its weight just like your average unity government too.

You really are unbelievably uninformed about Iraq.
 
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