• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

Tucker Case said:
They are all mammals and they will always have the same instinctual reactions that mammals have.
Click to expand...

My first hand experience in the region tells me a different story, but you go ahead and believe what you want.
 
Complicating the transition in U.S.-Egyptian relations by Daniel Levy | The Middle East Channel

I think this article by Daniel Levy, of Foreign Policy, has some useful information about the Muslim Brotherhood:

The Muslim Brotherhood (MB) is an important part of the Egyptian political landscape, a leading opposition force that was previously represented in parliament (before the ruling NDP party put its vote-rigging habit on steroids in last elections - November, 2010). The MB neither initiated nor led the current round of protests, but they have joined them and are likely to be a prominent player in a democratic Egypt (neither a dominant nor marginal role seems most likely).

The ability to use the Islamist boogieman to fuel US fears draws on a combination of unfamiliarity and ignorance, cultural arrogance, and real policy differences on regional issues, notably on Israel. That Arab publics left to their own devices should freely choose to support religious conservatives should largely be none of our business: Americans in many states make a similar choice at the ballot box. That American policymakers have so few links into the MB or serious channels of communication is simply a failure of American policy.

Nathan Brown, an expert on Islamist parties, has warned against US policymakers being misled by a tendency towards "Ikwanophobia" (ikwan is Arabic for the Muslim Brothers' movement). One cannot support participatory democratic politics in the Arab world while being totally allergic to the role that democratic Islamists will play. These movements are part of the legitimate political mix. They are more often than not at loggerheads with Al Qaeda, and far from being Al Qaeda-lite, they are frequently the most effective bulwark against Al Qaeda-style extremism.
Click to expand...

Perhaps MB isn't the bogeyman that some believe.
 
ricksfolly said:
The can of tear gas with "Made in USA" clearly displayed on it on TV, erased all doubts, especially since our obliging reporter showed it twice during one interview.

ricksfolly
Click to expand...

I've never seen American ordinance that was marked, "made in the USA".
 
apdst said:
I've never seen American ordinance that was marked, "made in the USA".
Click to expand...

tear-gas-canister.jpg


Now you have.

There are a number of USA-based companies that make these products and export them for police/military use.

Now, can you stop pretending to be an expert in all things military/middle east because you served in Desert Storm?
 
Last edited:
Apocalypse said:
Mubarak has announced that he's not going to run in the next elections.
That doesn't mean that the Egyptians are going to have a Democracy of course, simply that the dictator would not be Mubarak anymore.
Mubarak being as old as he is, that was bound to happen anyway, but the change that has occurred due to this revolting is that his son will not be the one to continue his regime.
Click to expand...

The Egyptians have made it clear they want the entire establishment wiped clean. At this level of mass demonstration the pressure to step down is nation, region and world-wide. Unless the army turn on the protesters and we have a Tiananmen square 2, which i highly doubt, i can tell you for sure that this level of determination and motivation emanating from every corner of Egyptian society will most likely end up better than what you have.... pessimistically calculated.

Its not likely Mubarak can survive much longer. Members of his family have already left or are leaving. It falls down to the Egyptian army at the end of the day, and its oligarchs.

I wonder if the protests are going to end now.
Click to expand...

Highly doubt this will satisfy the demonstrators and for a number of very valid reasons. We shall see in the coming hours.
 
Last edited:
Catz Part Deux said:
tear-gas-canister.jpg


Now you have.

There are a number of USA-based companies that make these products and export them for police/military use.
Click to expand...


Oh wow! That's commercial ****, not government issue.

You can buy those online.

See?

ALS7727--knesek-guns.jpg


That purdy much kills that notion.
 
Last edited:
apdst said:
Oh wow! That's commercial ****, not government issue.

You can buy those online.

See?

DT116


That purdy much kills that notion.
Click to expand...

Well, ****ing duh. Why do you assume that the munitions weren't purchased from American suppliers? American suppliers and defense contractors sell such things overseas every day.

Which, fwiw, is part of the problem.
 
Catz Part Deux said:
Well, ****ing duh. Why do you assume that the munitions weren't purchased from American suppliers? American suppliers and defense contractors sell such things overseas every day.

Which, fwiw, is part of the problem.
Click to expand...

So far, we've been lead to believe that those CS rounds were US military issue. Only now, do we know that the ordinance that is being used could have been bought anywhere.

I guess we're going to be told that it's the evil corporations that propped up Mubarack? :rofl
 
apdst said:
So far, we've been lead to believe that those CS rounds were US military issue. Only now, do we know that the ordinance that is being used could have been bought anywhere.

I guess we're going to be told that it's the evil corporations that propped up Mubarack? :rofl
Click to expand...

I don't agree with Ricksfolly's spin on the story, but American corporations would not have been allowed to sell dangerous chemicals (aka teargas) outside the U.S. without tacit government permission.
 
Catz Part Deux said:
I don't agree with Ricksfolly's spin on the story, but American corporations would not have been allowed to sell dangerous chemicals (aka teargas) outside the U.S. without tacit government permission.
Click to expand...

Yeah, those goddamn free markets.

The only way those companies wouldn't have been able to sell those rounds to would be to place a trade embargo on Egypt.
 
apdst said:
Yeah, those goddamn free markets.

The only way those companies wouldn't have been able to sell those rounds to would be to place a trade embargo on Egypt.
Click to expand...

This is not factual. The U.S. regulates the sales of weapons and weapon materials, including chemical weapons (which would cover tear gas).

You can't simply buy those things commercially on the internet and have them shipped overseas. That's illegal, and the companies won't do it. They also won't ship to certain U.S. cities and regions with laws limiting tear gas possession.

nice try, though.

At what point do you think that you will stop pretending to be an expert when you clearly aren't?
 
Last edited:
Catz Part Deux said:
This is not factual. The U.S. regulates sales of weapons and weapon materials at all times, including chemical weapons (which would cover tear gas).
Click to expand...

Obviously not, in this case. Most probably, those regulations only apply to lethal weapons.

Either way, what difference does it make where they got their CS ammo from? They woulda got it from somebody and the people that mde it and sold it aren't reponsible for how it's used, or who it's used on. It's stupid to hate America, just because the Egyptian cops are using American made tear gas. What's worse, is when people that this issue and use it to fester more hatred of America.
 
apdst said:
Obviously not, in this case. Most probably, those regulations only apply to lethal weapons.

Either way, what difference does it make where they got their CS ammo from? They woulda got it from somebody and the people that mde it and sold it aren't reponsible for how it's used, or who it's used on. It's stupid to hate America, just because the Egyptian cops are using American made tear gas. What's worse, is when people that this issue and use it to fester more hatred of America.
Click to expand...

This is not factual. The U.S. regulates the sales of weapons and weapon materials, including chemical weapons (which would cover tear gas).

You can't simply buy those things commercially on the internet and have them shipped overseas. That's illegal, and the companies won't do it. They also won't ship to certain U.S. cities and regions with laws limiting tear gas possession. These purchases have to be facilitated and approved by the U.S. government.

nice try, though.

At what point do you think that you will stop pretending to be an expert when you clearly aren't?
 
Redress said:
3025.jpg
Click to expand...

Again, that's civilian ammo. A repop of a 19th Century ammo box, at that, used for decoration. :rofl

The point is, it's been spun throughout this thread, that these rounds were US military issue and that turns out to be a lie.

Why would anyone want to incite more hatred of America? Especially, Libbos.
 
Catz Part Deux said:
This is not factual. The U.S. regulates the sales of weapons and weapon materials, including chemical weapons (which would cover tear gas).

You can't simply buy those things commercially on the internet and have them shipped overseas. That's illegal, and the companies won't do it. They also won't ship to certain U.S. cities and regions with laws limiting tear gas possession. These purchases have to be facilitated and approved by the U.S. government.

nice try, though.

At what point do you think that you will stop pretending to be an expert when you clearly aren't?
Click to expand...

And, sooooooooooooooooooo what?


It's ****ing stupid to make a big deal over this.
 
apdst said:
The point is, it's been spun throughout this thread, that these rounds were US military issue and that turns out to be a lie.
Click to expand...

Actually, the claim was that they were made in the U.S. If you can prove otherwise, please link to the post that supports the above (strawman) statement.

The point is: You don't know what you're talking about on this subject.
 
apdst said:
Again, that's civilian ammo. A repop of a 19th Century ammo box, at that, used for decoration. :rofl

The point is, it's been spun throughout this thread, that these rounds were US military issue and that turns out to be a lie.

Why would anyone want to incite more hatred of America? Especially, Libbos.
Click to expand...

I am almost positive that the ID plate on HARM misses include a made in USA stamp. Being factual is not hating the USA, nice try though.
 
apdst said:
It's ****ing stupid to make a big deal over this.
Click to expand...

Actually, it isn't. When our policies (such as weapons sales and foreign aid) help to prop up corrupt dictators and human rights squashing regimes, we all look bad. And, we should stop doing this ****.

It's not enough to make the proper noises that Mubarak should resign, but we need to stop putting weapons in the hands of dictators that are then used to oppress their people. Our government should stop facilitating sales of these weaspons into the hands of dictators and thugs in the 3rd world.

THAT SHOULD NOT BE OUR FOREIGN POLICY M.O.

It's time for our foreign policy emphasis to change. Propping up a thug with our funds for 30 years, and allowing him to purchase weapons and tear gas so that he can keep the masses quelled and under his thumb is essentially un-American.

That's very ****ing relevant to this particular thread. Mubarack would never have stayed in power without U.S. support, funds, and weapons.
 
Last edited:
Catz Part Deux said:
Actually, it isn't. When our policies (such as weapons sales and foreign aid) help to prop up corrupt dictators and human rights squashing regimes, we all look bad. And, we should stop doing this ****.

That's directly relevant to this thread. It's not enough to make the proper noises that Mubarak should resign, but we need to stop putting weapons in the hands of dictators that are then used to oppress their people. Our government should stop facilitating sales of these weaspons into the hands of dictators and thugs in the 3rd world.

THAT SHOULD NOT BE OUR FOREIGN POLICY M.O.
Click to expand...

Egypt bought weapons from all over the world. They would have bought those weapons from somebody. Even if we had refused to sell them weapons, Mubarack wasn't going anywhere.

It's irrelevant. It's idiotic to think that it is.
 
apdst said:
Egypt bought weapons from all over the world. They would have bought those weapons from somebody. Even if we had refused to sell them weapons, Mubarack wasn't going anywhere.
Click to expand...

First, even if the statement in bold is true, it's irrelevant. It doesn't matter that other countries might have sold these weapons. WE ARE ****ING AMERICA. Being the arms dealer to the world is a role that is in direct opposition to our role in maintaining freedom and democracy in the world.

And, it is counter-productive to the efforts and sacrifices of our men and women in uniform.
 
Tucker Case said:
Actually, I'm looking at it from the perspective of a person who has a fair understanding of psychology and biology.
Click to expand...

You're right... The difference between people and other mammals is mammals don't have sexual frustrations or feel any other kind of guilt, don't kill for sport, don't judge, don't lie or cheat, don't have fantasies, don't fear Gods or devils, and don't have any restrictive laws.

ricksfolly
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom