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Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

Jetboogieman said:
They'll end up with a hostile government either way.

It's far too late, they've thrown their support behind Mubarak, people aren't gonna forget that.

I hope that pompous prick steps down though. The democratic aspirations of the Egyptian people outweigh America's need for a friendly Egypt.
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Egypt won't necessarily elect a hostile government if the transition is managed properly. If someone like Mohamed ElBaradei is in charge of a transition government for 9-12 months, and promotes free speech/media, it will give Egyptian political parties a chance to form and grow. The only reason the Muslim Brotherhood is currently the only viable political party is because Mubarak suppressed every civil institution in Egypt except for the mosque.

I doubt a democratic Egypt could be described as a "US ally" or a "friendly Egypt," but there's no reason to think it will be a rogue state that destabilizes the region.
 
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Jetboogieman said:
And how exactly do you intend to do that? Rigging a foreign election.

There's no garuntee of this outcome if there's an election...

Better the devil you know... then the devil you don't...
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I would not call for a rigged anything, but surely there is opposition to Mubarak that is pro-West and capable of bringing about reforms that Egypt desparately needs.

To stand behind him is to repeat mistakes of the past, Western support for the Shah comes to mind....
 
tlmorg02 said:
I would not call for a rigged anything, but surely there is opposition to Mubarak that is pro-West and capable of bringing about reforms that Egypt desparately needs.

To stand behind him is to repeat mistakes of the past, Western support for the Shah comes to mind....
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Quite frankly, anti-western rhetoric will go far in Egypt if there's an election...

Just because you're pro-Western, doesn't mean you'll be reformists... their president at the moment is pro-western, that can be used against any party that is.

Nationalist parties will do well I think.
 
Jetboogieman said:
Quite frankly, anti-western rhetoric will go far in Egypt if there's an election...

Just because you're pro-Western, doesn't mean you'll be reformists... their president at the moment is pro-western, that can be used against any party that is.

Nationalist parties will do well I think.
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I agree, but if I were in Washington I would throw my support behind ElBaradei.
 
People have forgotten or rather the news that Tunisia is still protesting has been buried ...

INTERPOL is after the former President and his family to stand trial in Tunisia :lol:
 
Kandahar said:
I doubt a democratic Egypt could be described as a "US ally" or a "friendly Egypt," but there's no reason to think it will be a rogue state that destabilizes the region.
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I don't think it would be a rogue state.

But the important thing to remember is that Egypt has kept it's committment of peace with Israel since Sadat, and I don't think anybody wants to risk an aggresive Egypt in any way, shape or form.

Now I'm not saying that a government will be elected that will attack Israel, all I'm saying is, it makes the US nervous when a major change happens in the Middle East, think about it, this guy has been in power 20 years...

People can be very frightened of change.

But Here's to the Undiscovered Country... :party
 
tlmorg02 said:
I agree, but if I were in Washington I would throw my support behind ElBaradei.
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Jetboogieman said:
lol if I were in Washington...

That's not the only thing I would do :2razz:
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If I were anything to do with the US government I'd stay well away from endorsing any candidate nor would I involve myself in Egypt's internal politics in any way. That would be a guarantee that those you oppose would win.
 
Kandahar said:
"We strongly support the democratic aspirations of the Egyptian people and unequivocally condemn violence against them. We urge President Mubarak to step down immediately, and for Mohammed ElBaradei to lead a transition government in the lead up to elections."

- What Hillary Clinton should say on national television. Right now. This may be Mubarak's last day in power.
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Why? Who says that the Egyptian public wants ElBaradei to lead it in a transition government? Hell, who says that the majority of Egyptians do not still support Mubarak?
A few tens of thousands of protesters mean nothing, only in Cairo there are almost 8 million people.
Unless we see this in a referendum or elections, let's not jump to conclusions and engage in such hyperbole arguments.
 
Andalublue said:
If I were anything to do with the US government I'd stay well away from endorsing any candidate nor would I involve myself in Egypt's internal politics in any way. That would be a guarantee that those you oppose would win.
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sadly your way of thinking is not accepted by the americans.
 
Andalublue said:
If I were anything to do with the US government I'd stay well away from endorsing any candidate nor would I involve myself in Egypt's internal politics in any way. That would be a guarantee that those you oppose would win.
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Then a very public announcement that we support the Muslim Brotherhood should do the trick then, eh?
 
Apocalypse said:
Why? Who says that the Egyptian public wants ElBaradei to lead it in a transition government?
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Someone has to lead a transition government, and ElBaradei is the only prominent opposition figure who has offered himself up as far as I know. Whom would you suggest?

Apocalypse said:
Hell, who says that the majority of Egyptians do not still support Mubarak?
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The fact that he won't stand for a free and fair election suggests as much.

Apocalypse said:
A few tens of thousands of protesters mean nothing, only in Cairo there are almost 8 million people.
Unless we see this in a referendum or elections, let's not jump to conclusions and engage in such hyperbole arguments.
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Mubarak is done for, regardless of whether or not a majority of Egyptians support the protests.
 
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Kandahar said:
Someone has to lead a transition government, and ElBaradei is the only prominent opposition figure who has offered himself up as far as I know. Whom would you suggest?
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I wouldn't suggest anyone. It's not my job to do the suggestions just as it's not the American government's job.
It should happen naturally, the Egyptian nation should work it out itself.

The fact that he won't stand for a free and fair election suggests as much.
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That makes no sense, he himself cannot know the public's wishes, no one can unless you ask the entire public in a referendum or an elections.

Mubarak is done for, regardless of whether or not a majority of Egyptians support the protests.
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In my opinion the Mubarak family will stay in rule of Egypt for at least two more decades. His regime is quite more stable than most tend to think.
 
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Andalublue said:
It certainly wouldn't do El Baradei's chances any harm at all.
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Just to make sure, should we haul Dubya out of mothballs and have him make the announcement?

That would certainly seal the deal.
 
Apocalypse said:
I wouldn't suggest anyone. It's not my job to do the suggestions just as it's not the American government's job.
It should happen naturally, the Egyptian nation should work it out itself.
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Who is "the Egyptian nation"? How do you propose they "work it out themselves"? If the international community does not help guide their transition to democracy, the likely result will be a scramble for power in the vacuum left by Mubarak's departure. That does not bode well for the democratic health of the nation. Far better to support ElBaradei or some other prominent figure who has shown an inclination to support the conditions necessary for a healthy democracy to emerge...namely free speech and free media.

Apocalypse said:
That makes no sense, he himself cannot know the public's wishes, no one can unless you ask the entire public in a referendum or an elections.
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Umm
I think that's what the protesters are demanding...

Apocalypse said:
In my opinion the Mubarak family will stay in the rule of Egypt for at least two more decades. His regime is quite more stable then most tend to think.
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Mubarak is entirely dependent on the US for his survival.
 
Apocalypse said:
Why? Who says that the Egyptian public wants ElBaradei to lead it in a transition government? Hell, who says that the majority of Egyptians do not still support Mubarak?
A few tens of thousands of protesters mean nothing, only in Cairo there are almost 8 million people.
Unless we see this in a referendum or elections, let's not jump to conclusions and engage in such hyperbole arguments.
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How much confidence could you, we or the Egyptian people place in the results of a referendum or election conducted by the Mubarak regime? I agree that demonstrations by just a few thousand out of a population of 80 million cannot be assumed to represent the will of the majority and can be easily dismissed by the regime (look at how various regimes totally ignored 1.5 million+ person demonstrations against involvement in the Iraq war. There's a way to go yet, we in the West should keep our mouths shut and keep our fingers out of pies that our meddling could only spoil.
 
Kandahar said:
Who is "the Egyptian nation"? How do you propose they "work it out themselves"? If the international community does not help guide their transition to democracy, the likely result will be a scramble for power in the vacuum left by Mubarak's departure. That does not bode well for the democratic health of the nation. Far better to support ElBaradei or some other prominent figure who has shown an inclination to support the conditions necessary for a healthy democracy to emerge...namely free speech and free media.
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The Tunisians don't seem to need Western involvement to create a transition government. And as I said, it's not the responsibility of some external entity to promote one candidate or another, nor would it be accepted positively by the Egyptians as Anda pointed out above.

Umm
I think that's what the protesters are demanding..
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And unless a true referendum or elections happen you cannot expect the US to take one position or another as to who they believe the majority of Egypt support.
That's what you did, that's the kind of thinking I oppose.

Mubarak is entirely dependent on the US for his survival.
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As I said my opinion is that he would "survive" and that his family would stay in rule of the regime for a long long time. That is my opinion, your opinion is different, and that's pretty much it.
 
Andalublue said:
How much confidence could you, we or the Egyptian people place in the results of a referendum or election conducted by the Mubarak regime? I agree that demonstrations by just a few thousand out of a population of 80 million cannot be assumed to represent the will of the majority and can be easily dismissed by the regime (look at how various regimes totally ignored 1.5 million+ person demonstrations against involvement in the Iraq war. There's a way to go yet, we in the West should keep our mouths shut and keep our fingers out of pies that our meddling could only spoil.
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I doubt a true referendum or elections would occur in Egypt truly, I was simply pointing out that unless we have those as evidence we simply cannot say who is the most supported candidate in Egypt.
 
Apocalypse said:
The Tunisians don't seem to need Western involvement to create a transition government. And as I said, it's not the responsibility of some external entity to promote one candidate or another, nor would it be accepted positively by the Egyptians as Anda pointed out above.
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I didn't say anything about promoting one candidate. The extent of US involvement in Egyptian elections should be to insist that they are free and fair. That's completely different than supporting an orderly transition to democracy. They'll need someone in charge for that, and it should be someone who supports free speech and free media. This will allow Egyptian political parties to grow organically, so that the election is not simply dominated by the one movement (the Islamic Brotherhood) that Mubarak was unable to suppress.

Apocalypse said:
And unless a true referendum or elections happen you cannot expect the US to take one position or another as to who they believe the majority of Egypt support.
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I have said nothing about who I believe the majority of Egyptians support, other than that I don't think a democratic Egypt would necessarily be a rogue state that destabilizes the region.

Apocalypse said:
As I said my opinion is that he would "survive" and that his family would stay in rule of the regime for a long long time. That is my opinion, your opinion is different, and that's pretty much it.
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The only reason he's survived this long is because the US has sold him lots of military gear and given him diplomatic cover. Hopefully that stops now.
 
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Yahoo is reporting that police attacked Mohamed ElBaradei with water cannons, and he's now under house arrest. But Brutus is an honorable man.
 
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Apocalypse said:
I doubt a true referendum or elections would occur in Egypt truly, I was simply pointing out that unless we have those as evidence we simply cannot say who is the most supported candidate in Egypt.
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True that, but given the gaping chasm of confidence separating the Egyptians from their electoral system, what indicators could anyone use to gauge the strength of popular opinion there?
 
Kandahar said:
The US has enough on its plate without stirring up trouble in Egypt. :roll:
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I'm not talking the United States tsirring up trouble in Egypt. I'm talking when the Muslim Brotherhood stirs up trouble with us.
 
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