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Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

Grant said:
The deeper question remains of why those living in the democracies don't see its advantages and then fight for democracy everywhere. How do those who should know better rationalize Fascism, Communism, Islamism, Nazism, and so on, while blaming democracy (or "capitalism") for all the world's ills?
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I must admit that I have become somewhat immune to those usual suspects spouting about alternatives to Democracy. What really, really, really is pissing me off is the cynicism of the conservatives to this blossoming of popular will AND action toward liberty and rights. It is most hypocritical. As much as I agree with conservatives on the fiscal and economic fronts, I have lost major respect for their claims of supposed values.
 
reefedjib said:
I must admit that I have become somewhat immune to those usual suspects spouting about alternatives to Democracy. What really, really, really is pissing me off is the cynicism of the conservatives to this blossoming of popular will AND action toward liberty and rights. It is most hypocritical. As much as I agree with conservatives on the fiscal and economic fronts, I have lost major respect for their claims of supposed values.
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Could you please elaborate on this, Reefedjib, with some examples?

I was cynical as well about the Egyptian revolution, not with the Iraqi though, but really don't want to be.

How can we lose our cynicism? Do we need another Reaganesque figure who will point out all the good and positive things, all the many accomplishments, in our cultures?
 
reefedjib said:
I must admit that I have become somewhat immune to those usual suspects spouting about alternatives to Democracy. What really, really, really is pissing me off is the cynicism of the conservatives to this blossoming of popular will AND action toward liberty and rights. It is most hypocritical. As much as I agree with conservatives on the fiscal and economic fronts, I have lost major respect for their claims of supposed values.
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I think you're totally misreading what we've been saying.

I still challenge anyone to show me where any Conservative has said that freedom in Egypt is a bad thing. I know it can't be done, but it's necessary to keep the standards high.
 
Grant said:
Could you please elaborate on this, Reefedjib, with some examples?

I was cynical as well about the Egyptian revolution, not with the Iraqi though, but really don't want to be.

How can we lose our cynicism? Do we need another Reaganesque figure who will point out all the good and positive things, all the many accomplishments, in our cultures?
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Well, apdst here, my cousin, my father, my aunt, Glenn Beck, Rush, talk radio, the MB panic, and generally, among all of those, no excitement and celebration about the accomplishment, in the honor and legacy of liberty, in Egypt. No optimism, only dour cynicism. The only "conservative" perspective that has had any expression of hope and optimism is Bill Kristol, a Neoconservative, and Charles Krauthammer expresses his admiration for the expression of liberty by the Egyptians, then calls the outcome a week ahead of time, that the military would be the best "mid-wife" for Egyptian democracy.

I think it is much better to be optimistic, repeatably, and disappointed occasionally, than to be a dour cynic.
 
apdst said:
I think you're totally misreading what we've been saying.

I still challenge anyone to show me where any Conservative has said that freedom in Egypt is a bad thing. I know it can't be done, but it's necessary to keep the standards high.
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No conservative has said it is a bad thing, and that is not what i am saying, but the near complete cynicism that it can be accomplished (notwithstanding Krauthammer's article) is very disappointing.
 
reefedjib said:
I kinda figured you were a conservative, given your military background etc, but you really do sound like a Neoconservative to me. I am very frustrated and pissed off by the short-term thinking and fear-mongering from conservatives. I had thought that one of their closest held principles was Liberty for all. Their reaction to the revolution in Egypt leaves me wanting. They are not optimistic or hopeful or inspired. Instead they are dour and cynical. Why do I want people with no hope in their soul to run my country? They are hypocrites, just like America has been in its support of dictatorships out of a desire for stability and pure greed.
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I don't know what I am. I think in terms of security. Part of me is NeoCon (and Rumsfeld and Cheney were no NeoCons), but largely I'm just a student of the practical world. And I detest Global Leftists who are morally decrepit, but use liberal speeches to pretend otherwise. Being a Marine means that I have experienced a lot out there and any reading I have done just helps me explain or understand that experience.

I can appreciate that by 1950, the Soviet Union held influence over most of the world. I also can appreciate that all World War II forces learned that oil makes strong militaries. With this being said, America's dive into the gutter to push back their influence and inject our own meant that we had to devalue our morality at times in the interim. But after the Berlin Wall fell, we pretended that there were to be no repercussions. We released our grip just as the Soviets did. Even as Yugoslavia cracked apart into ethnic slaughter and genocide, we pretended that there was no reason. Even as American troops landed in nations that were falling apart or watched genocide in Africa from afar, we refused to identify the common theme, which was that they were all legacies of first, European colonialism, and second Cold War maintainment efforts. Even as U.S. military and civilian death counts rose abroad because of a growing terrorist organization, we refused the intle reports that told us about a religious crisis in the Middle East. And after 9/11, so many pretended (and still do) that a religion in crisis within these European made unnatural borders and underneath former Cold War leaderships couldn't possibly be a factor.

Look at the attitude in Washington since 2003. The Conservatives were all about the WMD excuse and then democracy in Iraq. The Liberals were all about the WMD excuse and damn Iraqi democracy. Today, Conservatives lean towards "stabilization" in Egypt, no matter the cost, and Liberals lean towards Egyptian democracy. And the American people have no idea what they support as can be seen in their fickle opinions as television commentators do everything possible to pretend they know what they are talking about. The truth is that instead of pretending that "our wars are over" in 1989, we should have recognized that the end of the Cold War meant that America was free of having to place our values on the shelf. We should have recognized that Europeans and Americans have a responsibility to deal with the mess that wasa created and facilitated over the last 400-ish years. And we damn well should have recognized that our long term security was never in good hands with the temporary dictator that defied the Soviet Union on our behalf.

But lets put this into selfish terms where we dismiss the well being of others. Let's just state what plenty prefer to state, which is that it is all about oil. Well, is not our long term business deals throughtout the world stronger where the citizens of those governments vote and choose destiny? Oil is no different and the fact is that these people would have an avenue of expression other than hating the "foriegn devil" and strapping bombs to their chests or joining organizations that support such activity.

No matter how the dimwitted and shallow pundit defines it, democracy inthe Middle East equals American security. It is a fact that our security has always been decided by the health of foriegn regions.
 
MSgt said:
I don't know what I am. I think in terms of security. Part of me is NeoCon (and Rumsfeld and Cheney were no NeoCons), but largely I'm just a student of the practical world. And I detest Global Leftists who are morally decrepit, but use liberal speeches to pretend otherwise. Being a Marine means that I have experienced a lot out there and any reading I have done just helps me explain or understand that experience.

I can appreciate that by 1950, the Soviet Union held influence over most of the world. I also can appreciate that all World War II forces learned that oil makes strong militaries. With this being said, America's dive into the gutter to push back their influence and inject our own meant that we had to devalue our morality at times in the interim. But after the Berlin Wall fell, we pretended that there were to be no repercussions. We released our grip just as the Soviets did. Even as Yugoslavia cracked apart into ethnic slaughter and genocide, we pretended that there was no reason. Even as American troops landed in nations that were falling apart or watched genocide in Africa from afar, we refused to identify the common theme, which was that they were all legacies of first, European colonialism, and second Cold War maintainment efforts. Even as U.S. military and civilian death counts rose abroad because of a growing terrorist organization, we refused the intle reports that told us about a religious crisis in the Middle East. And after 9/11, so many pretended (and still do) that a religion in crisis within these European made unnatural borders and underneath former Cold War leaderships couldn't possibly be a factor.

Look at the attitude in Washington since 2003. The Conservatives were all about the WMD excuse and then democracy in Iraq. The Liberals were all about the WMD excuse and damn Iraqi democracy. Today, Conservatives lean towards "stabilization" in Egypt, no matter the cost, and Liberals lean towards Egyptian democracy. And the American people have no idea what they support as can be seen in their fickle opinions as television commentators do everything possible to pretend they know what they are talking about. The truth is that instead of pretending that "our wars are over" in 1989, we should have recognized that the end of the Cold War meant that America was free of having to place our values on the shelf. We should have recognized that Europeans and Americans have a responsibility to deal with the mess that wasa created and facilitated over the last 400-ish years. And we damn well should have recognized that our long term security was never in good hands with the temporary dictator that defied the Soviet Union on our behalf.

But lets put this into selfish terms where we dismiss the well being of others. Let's just state what plenty prefer to state, which is that it is all about oil. Well, is not our long term business deals throughtout the world stronger where the citizens of those governments vote and choose destiny? Oil is no different and the fact is that these people would have an avenue of expression other than hating the "foriegn devil" and strapping bombs to their chests or joining organizations that support such activity.

No matter how the dimwitted and shallow pundit defines it, democracy inthe Middle East equals American security. It is a fact that our security has always been decided by the health of foriegn regions.
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I am not sure I can express my gratitude for being able to read such a grounded exposition, MSgt. You got your **** together and hopefully others can reevaluate the way they see the world on reading your words. Simply, thank you.

I wrote this to my cynical cousin on Facebook a few minutes ago (and stole a few of your lines, thanks again :) ):

Hope for the best and plan for the worst.

Since 9/11, realizing that our support for autocracies in the ME was radicalizing the Muslim population because of our hypocrisy, I waited for our reaction. Afghanistan was an immediate reaction to disrupt Al'Qaeda. Iraq was the reaction I was waiting for. Bin Laden got his wish, and Bush completely changed our Foreign Policy toward the Middle East. The new organizing principle? Only freedom and democracy can alleviate the oppression Muslims live under, which is spawning radicalism. Democracy is the antidote to oppression, and will compete with radicalism. Iraq was the shock and awe to the Middle East, but not in the way it was assumed. It was NOT about our weapons and the destruction we could cause or the rapidity of our victory over poorly trained and equipped conventional forces. No, it was our resilience faced with insurgency, to not run away a la Mogadishu. It was the rise of liberty and free speech and assembly and the ratification of a new constitution and the free and fair election of representatives across Iraq, televised live to the Middle East, courtesy of Al'Jazeera.

This is what sparked the hopes and dreams of average Muslims across the region. The wave of democratization is building fast. Cairo was once a seat of the Caliphate, before the Arabian Peninsula elders blew it apart in jealousy that they had lost their influence over Muslims. Once again it takes the lead as the home of the internally sponsored revolt against autocracy - no need to external intervention anymore, the trigger has been pulled. Algeria today, who tomorrow? Baghdad, Cairo and Islamabad are the centers of the revolution. Mecca is history, politically, only good for the Hajj with its 5-star hotels.

I am not willfully blind to reality, but I am invested emotionally in hope and change (not that Obama has given us any of that). They are not vapors. It is what moves mens' and womens' spirit and gives power that can overcome any obstacle.

"[God] will not change the condition of a people until they change what is in themselves" (Qur'an 13:11)
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Grant said:
The deeper question remains of why those living in the democracies don't see its advantages and then fight for democracy everywhere. How do those who should know better rationalize Fascism, Communism, Islamism, Nazism, and so on, while blaming democracy (or "capitalism") for all the world's ills?
Click to expand...

Because these kinds of people (Leftists) still believe in the impractical dream of Marx and the notion that people can be organized "perfectly." Marx' dream will always evolve into the Maos and the Stalins because Communism can never work on such a government level. Nazism (extreme dictatorship) is another failed ideology that assumed to "perfect" people. Islam, as an organizing tool in the 20th century, also failed. While they enjoy their freedom of expression and sense of voice in a democracy, they dismiss the fact that only like minded people will ever create utopia. And when one seeks to make this a reality in our world, they will evolve into the Maos, Stalins, and Hitlers in order to kill off those who are not of the collective. With one of America's great global missions being that of democracy, being the "last man standing" in 1989 while all other systems of governance had been demolished and tossed into history's waste bin, progress and prosperity is absolutely tied to a systemn where people are simply different and accepted.

Exaggerated self-flaggelation is also a Leftist trait, so seeking every imperfection in democracy will always trump honesty.
 
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reefedjib said:
No conservative has said it is a bad thing, and that is not what i am saying, but the near complete cynicism that it can be accomplished (notwithstanding Krauthammer's article) is very disappointing.
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No one is saying that, either. Another complete misinterpretaion of past comments.

My cynicism isn't about that it can be accomplished as much as it is about that it will be accomplished.

Very few times in history has a military, once they gaine power, just said, "ok, here ya go", and handed things off to a civilian parliament. To say that there's no way that the Egyptian army won't turn around and **** the Egyptians is naive, at best.

All I've been getting at throughout this thread and the other threads on this subject, is that I'll get excited, when it's time to get excited. IMO, that time hasn't come, yet.

If you're put off, because I don't just take the army's word for it, that they're going to get everything organized and then just step back to let an elected government run the show, then I apologize, but history tells me to not to be so certain that that will be the case.
 
MSgt said:
The truth is that instead of pretending that "our wars are over" in 1989, we should have recognized that the end of the Cold War meant that America was free of having to place our values on the shelf. We should have recognized that Europeans and Americans have a responsibility to deal with the mess that wasa created and facilitated over the last 400-ish years. And we damn well should have recognized that our long term security was never in good hands with the temporary dictator that defied the Soviet Union on our behalf.
Click to expand...

Richard Nixon said much the same thing shortly after the fall of the Berlin Wall and that the vacuum left by the fall of Communism would be filled by radical Islam, and this long before Islam has become an international threat.
 
reefedjib said:
I must admit that I have become somewhat immune to those usual suspects spouting about alternatives to Democracy. What really, really, really is pissing me off is the cynicism of the conservatives to this blossoming of popular will AND action toward liberty and rights. It is most hypocritical. As much as I agree with conservatives on the fiscal and economic fronts, I have lost major respect for their claims of supposed values.
Click to expand...

You can count me in the group that is optimistic, but also realistic. DO I HOPE that the Egyptians develop a peaceful democracy? OF COURSE I do...and have said so many times. Am I CONCERNED that instead it will become another Iran? Yep...I am. I believe that is the much more likely scenario. But I have ALSO said...Egypt, like IRaq and Afghanistan for that matter, can and should control their own destiny. If they are smart they will reject fundamentalism. If they ignore it as a threat or embrace it...well..then let em burn...thats their choice. As long as they keep it within their borders...cest la vie.
 
Al Jazeera - Protests and clashes happening in Algeria and Yemen
 
MSgt said:
Because these kinds of people (Leftists) still believe in the impractical dream of Marx and the notion that people can be organized "perfectly." Marx' dream will always evolve into the Maos and the Stalins because Communism can never work on such a government level. Nazism (extreme dictatorship) is another failed ideology that assumed to "perfect" people. Islam, as an organizing tool in the 20th century, also failed. While they enjoy their freedom of expression and sense of voice in a democracy, they dismiss the fact that only like minded people will ever create utopia. And when one seeks to make this a reality in our world, they will evolve into the Maos, Stalins, and Hitlers in order to kill off those who are not of the collective. With one of America's great global missions being that of democracy, being the "last man standing" in 1989 while all other systems of governance had been demolished and tossed into history's waste bin, progress and prosperity is absolutely tied to a systemn where people are simply different and accepted.

Exaggerated self-flaggelation is also a Leftist trait, so seeking every imperfection in democracy will always trump honesty.
Click to expand...

Well said. It would be interesting to see how any former Communists, or any Leftists, respond to these points.

Perhaps some of them have had a "What was I thinking?!?" moment.
 
apdst said:
No one is saying that, either. Another complete misinterpretaion of past comments.

My cynicism isn't about that it can be accomplished as much as it is about that it will be accomplished.

Very few times in history has a military, once they gaine power, just said, "ok, here ya go", and handed things off to a civilian parliament. To say that there's no way that the Egyptian army won't turn around and **** the Egyptians is naive, at best.

All I've been getting at throughout this thread and the other threads on this subject, is that I'll get excited, when it's time to get excited. IMO, that time hasn't come, yet.

If you're put off, because I don't just take the army's word for it, that they're going to get everything organized and then just step back to let an elected government run the show, then I apologize, but history tells me to not to be so certain that that will be the case.
Click to expand...

These are all short-term obstacles and details, quite frankly. The wave of democratization of the Middle East has truly started, now. The government of Egypt was discarded by spontaneous popular protest. A non-violent demonstration, for 18 days, that continually grew in numbers and geographical location throughout Egypt (at least each Tuesday and Friday, while the hard core protesters kept ownership of Tahrir Square during the off days while the people rested up for the next barrage, and maintained possession of the square under coordinated assault by security forces, the NDP party members and other Mubarak supporters). Glorious!

Egypt was an internally driven revolution. Iraq was invaded. I consider Iraq to be the starter motor for freedom in the ME and now the engine is purring perfectly on its own. It is hardly over now, it has just begun. Tunisia, Algeria, Libya?, EGYPT, Yemen, Jordan, Syria, IRAN?, Saudi Arabia? Dictators are scrambling to appease their citizens now that it is clear to all what is possible.

Whether is can or will be accomplished, you are cynical in the midst of the greatest transformation of the world since Enlightenment. That is not overstating things, either.
 
reefedjib said:
I am not sure I can express my gratitude for being able to read such a grounded exposition, MSgt. You got your **** together and hopefully others can reevaluate the way they see the world on reading your words. Simply, thank you.

I wrote this to my cynical cousin on Facebook a few minutes ago (and stole a few of your lines, thanks again :) ):
Click to expand...

Thanks for that. ...and good Qu'ranic verse.
 
reefedjib said:
These are all short-term obstacles and details, quite frankly. The wave of democratization of the Middle East has truly started, now. The government of Egypt was discarded by spontaneous popular protest. A non-violent demonstration, for 18 days, that continually grew in numbers and geographical location throughout Egypt (at least each Tuesday and Friday, while the hard core protesters kept ownership of Tahrir Square during the off days while the people rested up for the next barrage, and maintained possession of the square under coordinated assault by security forces, the NDP party members and other Mubarak supporters). Glorious!

Egypt was an internally driven revolution. Iraq was invaded. I consider Iraq to be the starter motor for freedom in the ME and now the engine is purring perfectly on its own. It is hardly over now, it has just begun. Tunisia, Algeria, Libya?, EGYPT, Yemen, Jordan, Syria, IRAN?, Saudi Arabia? Dictators are scrambling to appease their citizens now that it is clear to all what is possible.

Whether is can or will be accomplished, you are cynical in the midst of the greatest transformation of the world since Enlightenment. That is not overstating things, either.
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I doubt any of this would have happened though without the collapse of Communism. That was where it all started as far as the modern era is concerned, and though there will be some difficult patches the trend, over time, does seem to be in one direction.

One hundred years ago there were only a very few democracies. Change is happening.
 
Laila said:
Al Jazeera - Protests and clashes happening in Algeria and Yemen
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Al-Jazeera - Egyptian military conditionally offer dropping the Emergency Rule on Friday. Army guarantees smooth and democratic transition of power. Egypt's Constitutional Council met Saturday to discuss reforms.
 
reefedjib said:
Al-Jazeera - Egyptian military conditionally offer dropping the Emergency Rule on Friday. Army guarantees smooth and democratic transition of power. Egypt's Constitutional Council met Saturday to discuss reforms.
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Al-Jazeera - Egyptians say that the current Constitution is invalid and demand a new one.
 
Grant said:
Richard Nixon said much the same thing shortly after the fall of the Berlin Wall and that the vacuum left by the fall of Communism would be filled by radical Islam, and this long before Islam has become an international threat.
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Yeah but back then nobody was willing to look at religion. And throughout the 90s such a thing was absolutely politically incorrect and even forbidden in intel reports (I've read their obvious avoidances). We like to think that religious crisis is only a Christian Middle Age thing. We subscribe to the recent history phenomena, which is that enemies only come from national guidons and uniformed mannerisms. We like to pretend that the white Western inspired self-righteous Geneva Convention laws must pertain to the entire world even though they had nothing to do to with its evolution. And whenthey don't..."how dare they."

We like to pretend that all issues have simple answers and when they do not, we behave as if they will solve themselves. None in Washington personify this ignorance more than Rumsfeld's "No-Plan" for Iraq in 2003 where democracy was supposed to spring forth on its own once Baghdad fell (he's the same idiot that was afraid of Iraq's tribal instability without Hussein in 1991).
 
Grant said:
I doubt any of this would have happened though without the collapse of Communism. That was where it all started as far as the modern era is concerned, and though there will be some difficult patches the trend, over time, does seem to be in one direction.

One hundred years ago there were only a very few democracies. Change is happening.
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Fair enough. As MSgt pointed out, the Cold War caused us to make short-term decisions and abandon our principles. However, IMHO, the fall of Communism alone did not offer the prospect of democracy. The public evolution of the invasion and adoption of democracy by Iraq, was the starter motor for democracy in the ME. It is important that though invaded, this was done by the Iraqis, with our assistance, but it was the Iraqis who constructed the constitution, ratified it by popular vote, elected their permanent government, and exercised their freedom of speech and assembly, something not allowed in other parts of the ME. Iraq gave the ME the democracy option and inspiration. "Why not here" they ask?
 
MSgt said:
Thanks for that. ...and good Qu'ranic verse.
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MSgt, you should really write an opinion piece for the NYT, laying out your long view and the opportunity that presents itself. Really. Let me know if you do and if it gets published! (I am not a regular reader of that paper)
 
Grant said:
Well said. It would be interesting to see how any former Communists, or any Leftists, respond to these points.

Perhaps some of them have had a "What was I thinking?!?" moment.
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Aside from select Sunni Arabs, the Global Left is the most stubborn and hypocritical group of people in history. Leftists used to be about the worker. Well, they won. They created unions. In other parts of the world, they created the Hammer & Sickle. They will excuse Mao and Stalin and simply state that they perverted Marx. They will excuse the intellectuals of Germany and Iran and simply state that they were taken advantage of by tyrants. You see, the Global Left is made up of dreamers who are willing to destroy everything and anything that provides them their prosperity just to achieve the impossible dream of utopia. They will develop schemes of population control in the hopes that somebody else somewhere else can take the guilt for administering the plan to reality. They will preach on the people's right to basic human rights, but deny any attempt to make it so. They will point and scoff from afar the genocides of Africa, but turn their backs while screaming on the virtues of "soveriegnty" when asked to do something about it. No matter how many genocides or social oppressions their scemes evolve into, they will always deny it and pretend that the plan would have worked in the hands of other men. Hundreds of millions of corpses between Berlin and Cambodia should be enough to force the schemers to acknowledge that imperfect people will never compliment the "perfect" system. Today's Leftist have resorted to merely being the anti-American voice that can't fathom a global event that can't be blamed on the U.S. After all, along history's path.... all their schemes have failed and fallen under the American boot. Bitter?

We shouldn't kill the dreamers. But we damn sure better kill their dreams.
 
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MSgt said:
The fact is that Allah has caused plenty of damage and his armies have occupied far more vast territory as an empire than any of God's armies.
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This is nothing short of being factually incorrect. The British Empire has occupied far more vast territory than any other empire in history.
MSgt said:
But.......if you need history to start with "Western Imperialism" or even the year 1991 when an occupying Muslim military had to get kicked out of Kuwait by the dastardly Christian Army, then you may go ahead and pretend that the West, especially America, is the scourge of the earth.
Foolish.
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How about we talk about the Western Betrayal? How millions of people were slaughtered because America and the West did not fulfill their agreements? Queue the apoligia in 3... 2.... 1...
 
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