• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

Andalublue said:
I note that the Palestinians are doing even better. Imagine, Hamas and Fatah getting something right!
Click to expand...

I guess you could say the Palestinians are doing better if you over look the fact that for over 40 years the UN and their brothers have kept "refugee" camps open rather than welcoming them as citizens. I wonder given the 40+ (isn't it really closer to 60+) years, are there any "refugees" from the establishment of Israel still there?
 
Grant said:
Except you didn't say they were "flawed". And of curse a struggling democracy is always better than an efficiecient dictatorship.
Click to expand...

You didn't understand me then.

Oh and i agree, im just telling you that to call Iraq a model democracy is an insult to those who have fought and died for it.

Excuse me??? Are you saying the European nations went directly from monarchies and dictatorships to democracies without lives being lost? Or the struggle against Communism and Fascism?

Do they not teach you French history in the UK anymore?
Click to expand...

WTF?
When i said media was censored in Iraq, you said:

You can say the same thing of Western Europe nations. You preferred the previous democracy in Iraq? You apparently know little of what is going on in Iraq,
Click to expand...

So what are you talking about?


Do you see any riots going on in Baghdad? In fact it is a good role model for other ME nations. Which other would serve better?
Click to expand...

Turkey, which is also a part of the ME.
To insinuate Iraq is a role model is like telling me Zimbabwe is the leader of gay rights
in the world. The people aren't protesting there because they cant even gather in large crowds and the political divides are so colossal they disagree and fight amongst each other just for the sake of it.

Egyptians haven't protested until now, doesn't mean there problems have only materialized in the past few days.

But that's not what you said though, was it? You said the Americans have left, which shows you know as much about that area of the world as you do about European history. It's not smart to guess at history or current events.
Click to expand...

Its not remotely entertaining that you aim to twist my words. The war has in effect ended. The American battalions responsible for invading and fighting terrorism has largely left. The rest are supporting the security forces.

You might want to consider an upgrade.
Click to expand...

There is a fine line between a fool and an American patriot such as yourself.

So i try and stick to my neutral sources.
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
kaya'08 said:
Thats your personal opinion....even though history would tell us what your saying is wrong.
Click to expand...

Not a problem. All you need to do now is quote me where I'm wrong and we can go from there.
The nations the US has meddled in the most are actually by and far everything but democratic. Iran, Afghanistan, Iraq, Pakistan....and the list goes on.
Click to expand...

So you feel that the history of these nations was negatively affected by the United States? Why not take them one at a time so we can decide where the US went wrong in each of them? I suppose you feel that the United States should have introduced democracy to countries all over the world by persuasive conversation. Is that your tactic?

If all it takes is to string a few words together then the Western Europeans should be able to handle that much.
The only way anything has ever changed is when the people demand it. The people are currently demanding Democracy in Tunisia and Egypt. And when you pull your patriotism aside, you will see it was done entirely on their own merit.
Click to expand...

Is that what they are demanding?

I think we should wait and see before we decide on what was behind the riots and what the consequences might be. Riots in the streets do not necessarily lead to democracy.
Click to expand...
 
kaya'08 said:
Grant said:
You didn't understand me then.

Oh and i agree, im just telling you that to call Iraq a model democracy is an insult to those who have fought and died for it.
Click to expand...

If you genuinely want to continue this conversation I'm going to have to insist you use quotes.

I did never say Iraq was a "model democracy". That is a lie.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
reefedjib said:
Of course it is. They have independent institutions to secure the democracy. It is not a fig leaf covering an authoritarian regime. All people of Iraq has representation and deals and negotiation is occurring.
Click to expand...

You have been proven wrong by Kandahars evidence already. The Iraqi democracy is a sham.

Proves there is a free press, which you claimed was not the case.
Click to expand...

There was a list of newspapers. Sorry, what does that prove? :roll:

This is what I have been saying. But even more, Iraq will be a model for political transformation to a democracy. Other instances of democracies do not provide a recent example of transition.
Click to expand...

It need not be recent and Egyptians could not possibly relate to Iraq. The Iraqi transformation process was not self instructed. It was imported by an occupying power and it resembled more like an instant microwave democracy rather than a "transition" which assumes there where some sort of long stretching process involving the people - something that was lacking in Iraq.

In Egypt, the situation is different. The people are here to impose the democracy and there united across political divides. It was not forced onto them and they have agreed that El Baradei should lead the revolt. The two "transitions" to democracy cannot possibly be contrasted.


Turkey is non-Arab and does not provide a recent example of transformation.
Click to expand...

The fact that it is non-Arab is an irrelevant and pathetic excuse.

The Kemalist transition to Democracy is very very relevant to theocratic and autocratic regimes in the ME because its precisely the Kemalist reforms that dismantled the religious institutions and modernized them, devolved powers to executive branches and removed a head of state who had absolute sovereign (the boldened being most relevant to Egypt).

You cannot deny that Turkey is very popular in the Arab world and its popularity has resulted in many aspiring to its Democracy and state of economy among Arab states.

Then is it your position that events in Iraq over the past 7 years have had NO IMPACT on events in the region or the protests within Tunisia and Egypt?
Click to expand...

No positive impacts, no.
And the protests in Tunisia and Egypt have nothing to do with Iraq. The only role model Iraq has played for these countries is to model a democratic system that resembles nothing like Iraq.

Explain the connection to Turkey, with the protests in Egypt.
Click to expand...

Look up. And you also partially explain the reason below:

The impact of Turkey will be to help democratization of ME countries as Turkey's influence grows over the region to counter Iran and re-establish a pseudo-Ottoman Empire again. The economy, literacy, and diplomacy will dominate the ME over the next 30 years. Turkey unequivocally supports the opposition to these dictatorships.
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
Grant said:
Not a problem. All you need to do now is quote me where I'm wrong and we can go from there.
Click to expand...

I have listed these countries and historic examples of why you are incorrect.

So you feel that the history of these nations was negatively affected by the United States? Why not take them one at a time so we can decide where the US went wrong in each of them? I suppose you feel that the United States should have introduced democracy to countries all over the world by persuasive conversation. Is that your tactic?
Click to expand...

No - my tactic is something you will despise: not invading them, not massacring them, allowing the people to call for Democracy and fight for it themselves. How terrible. American interests in each of these nations have either strengthened evil forces at work or created one extreme over another.

Is that what they are demanding?

I think we should wait and see before we decide on what was behind the riots and what the consequences might be. Riots in the streets do not necessarily lead to democracy.
Click to expand...

In which case lets hope the US stops funding Mubarak. They may stand half a chance. :)
 
Last edited:
Grant said:
So you feel that the history of these nations was negatively affected by the United States? Why not take them one at a time so we can decide where the US went wrong in each of them? I suppose you feel that the United States should have introduced democracy to countries all over the world by persuasive conversation. Is that your tactic?
Click to expand...

how about if we not presume to tell people how to run their countries? live and let live anyone?
 
Kandahar said:
The Economist rates Iraq a 4.00 on their 10-point "Democracy Index." That's not considered a full democracy or even a flawed democracy. It's the bare minimum score that can even be considered a democratic-autocratic hybrid state. Iraq scores lower than Russia and just barely above Cuba on the Democracy Index.

Iraq may have a Parliament and Prime Minister (finally), but it's hardly a "democratic democracy" which serves as a good role model for other Arab states. Furthermore, Iraq is sitting on top of oil whereas Tunisia and Egypt are not. I cannot overemphasize how important oil is, as a retarding force on democratic development. Tunisia and Egypt should be able to do far better than Iraq.
Click to expand...

Let's dig a bit into this score of 4.00 for Iraq and its 111 ranking in the Index.

The Economist Intelligence Unit's Democracy Index is based on 60 indicators grouped in five different categories: electoral process and pluralism, civil liberties, functioning of government, political participation and political culture.
Click to expand...

Category scores
Country.....Rank....Overall...I Electoral process..II Functioning of..III Political...IV Political....V Civil liberties
...........................score......and pluralism........government.....participation...culture

Lebanon......86.......5.82..........7.92...............3.93............6.67...........5.00............5.59
Turkey........89.......5.73..........7.92...............7.14............3.89...........5.00............4.71
Iraq..........111.........4.00.............4.33...................0.79................6.11..............3.75...............5.00
Egypt........138.......3.07..........0.83...............3.21............2.78...........5.00............3.53
Click to expand...

Let's look at the scores for the categories for Iraq.

I Electoral process and pluralism: scored low compared to Lebanon and Turkey since it is BRAND SPANKING NEW! The political parties have barely had time for form and create an identity with the people. Iraqis tend to vote ethnically at the moment and differences between secular versus religious parties are not pronounced.

II Functioning of Government: It is BRAND SPANKING NEW! They have yet to turn into the well oiled machine. Of course it is in the sewer, it just formed and the various ministries still haven't figured out how to operate nationally. Most services are locally managed, barely.

III Political Participation: Excellent! They have large electoral turnouts.

IV Political culture: Just started to form a broad-based political culture after decades of it being an illegal activity.

V Civil liberties: On measure with Turkey and Lebanon.


No. of......Democracy index........Full.........Flawed........Hybrid....Authoritarian
countries......average.........democracies..democracies....regimes...regimes

North America
.....2...............8.63...................2..............0................0...........0
Western Europe
....21..............8.45..................16.............4.................1..........0
Eastern Europe
....28..............5.55....................1...........15.................6..........6
Latin America & the Caribbean
....24..............6.37....................2...........15.................6..........1
Asia & Australasia
....28..............5.53....................4...........10.................7..........7
Middle East & North Africa
....20..................3.43........................0.................1.....................3............16
Sub-Saharan Africa
....44..............4.23....................1.............8...............10.........25
Click to expand...

The Middle East is in horrible shape, worse than Sub-Saharan Africa. Positive movement of any country in the ME is an incredible example. The size of the jump Iraq has made since 2003 is quite significant.

The Economist Intelligence Unit measure
The Economist Intelligence Unit’s index is based on the view that measures of democracy that reflect the state of political freedoms and civil liberties are not “thick” enough. They do not encompass sufficiently or at all some features that determine how substantive democracy is or its quality. Freedom is an essential component of democracy, but not sufficient. In existing measures, the elements of political participation and functioning of government are taken into account only in a marginal and formal way. The Economist Intelligence Unit’s democracy index is based on five categories: electoral process and pluralism; civil liberties; the functioning of government; political participation; and political culture. The five categories are inter-related and form a coherent conceptual whole. The condition of having free and fair competitive elections, and satisfying related aspects of political freedom, is clearly the sine quo none of all definitions. All modern definitions, except the most minimalist, also consider civil liberties to be a vital component of what is often called “liberal democracy”. The principle of the protection of basic human rights is widely accepted. It is embodied in constitutions throughout the world as well as in the UN Charter and international agreements such as the Helsinki Final Act (the Conference on Security and Co-operation in Europe). Basic human rights include the freedom of speech, expression and the press; freedom of religion; freedom of assembly and association; and the right to due judicial process. All democracies are systems in which citizens freely make political decisions by majority rule. But rule by the majority is not necessarily democratic. In a democracy majority rule must be combined with guarantees of individual human rights and the rights of minorities.

Most measures also include aspects of the minimum quality of functioning of government. If democratically-based decisions cannot or are not implemented then the concept of democracy is not very meaningful or it becomes an empty shell. Democracy is more than the sum of its institutions. A democratic political culture is also crucial for the legitimacy, smooth functioning and ultimately the sustainability of democracy. A culture of passivity and apathy, an obedient and docile citizenry, are not consistent with democracy. The electoral process periodically divides the population into winners and losers. A successful democratic political culture implies that the losing parties and their supporters accept the judgment of the voters, and allow for the peaceful transfer of power. Participation is also a necessary component, as apathy and abstention are enemies of democracy. Even measures that focus predominantly on the processes of representative, liberal democracy include (although inadequately or insufficiently) some aspects of participation. In a democracy, government is only one element in a social fabric of many and varied institutions, political organisations, and associations. Citizens cannot be required to take part in the political process, and they are free to express their dissatisfaction by not participating. However, a healthy democracy requires the active, freely chosen participation of citizens in public life. Democracies flourish when citizens are willing to participate in public debate, elect representatives and join political parties. Without this broad, sustaining participation, democracy begins to wither and become the preserve of small, select groups.
Click to expand...

Iraq is termed a Hybrid Regime...
Hybrid regimes: Elections have substantial irregularities that often prevent them from being both free and fair. Government pressure on opposition parties and candidates may be common. Serious weaknesses are more prevalent than in flawed democracies--in political culture, functioning of government and political participation. Corruption tends to be widespread and the rule of law is weak. Civil society is weak. Typically there is harassment of and pressure on
journalists, and the judiciary is not independent
Click to expand...

I think there is no doubt that Iraq is not perfect. However, it does have the constitutional and institutional foundation as a very young democracy.

The 60 questions can be found at the end of the Democracy index 2010. Notably see the questions for the category II Functioning of Government, for which Iraq scored quite low. Some examples:

17. Foreign powers do not determine important government functions or policies.
18. Special economic, religious or other powerful domestic groups do not exercise significant political power, parallel to democratic institutions?
19. Are sufficient mechanisms and institutions in place for assuring government accountability to the electorate in between elections?
22. How pervasive is corruption?
23. Is the civil service willing and capable of implementing government policy?
25. Public confidence in government
26. Public confidence in political parties
Click to expand...
 
Catz Part Deux said:
Iraq does serve as a valuable object lesson of "what not to do." The middle eastern states hardly need to look to Iraq as an example of a secular democracy. They have Turkey and Indonesia, both of which are far better case studies in how a nation can be both Islamic and democractic.

Our nation building efforts in Iraq were hugely flawed and have yet to pay off. They were well-intentioned, but in retrospect, have not succeeded, perhaps because of flaws in execution and planning, as well as flaws in the expectation of what would happen, on the ground, when we arrived, along with flaws in our treatment of the Iraqi army.
Click to expand...

Not at all. It did provide a democratization model to the ME. The biggest problem that had to be dealt with, and fed the difficulties in execution, and still today is the major stumbling block, is the ethnic rivalries. Egypt does not suffer from this.
 
I don't know if this is a repost. But anyways back onto topic:
On Jan. 29, Adm. Jim Stavridis, commander of U.S. European Command, tweeted: "Watching Egypt closely. Talking with Gen. Jim Mattis of U.S. Central Command about it."

But despite the chaos of the ongoing anti-government protests, so far all the American military has had to do is watch as the State Department directs the effort to secure and evacuate U.S. citizens.

While an undisclosed number of Marines and diplomatic security service personnel were sent to Cairo in recent days to augment the embassy's existing guard detachment, top State Department spokesman P.J. Crowley said the security situation doesn't demand a military response.
Click to expand...

US Military


I just hope that the US military does not become involved. That would be a big mistake.
 
Kandahar said:
It is one of the higher numbers in the region...but not by much. Certainly not by enough to justify a war to promote it there. If we merely wanted to help democratize a country to serve as a shining example of Arab democracy, Iraq was just about the worst choice: It has large oil reserves, a low GDP per capita, and sectarian conflicts. We would have been far better off picking one of the ones that is revolting now: Tunisia, Egypt, Jordan.
Click to expand...

Nonsense. It was the best choice BY FAR. It was autocratic with suppressed minorities (majority in the case of the Shia). We had an argument to make that we were invading to stop the enslavement of Iraqis as a humanitarian intervention. This was not used as the primary reasoning, WMD was (which I feel is preventative war and therefore unjust. Humanitarian intervention is a just war - Just and Unjust Wars). It had a high literacy rate compared to the region. It had economic activity beyond natural resources. We were nominally still at war with Saddam since 1991. There were 17 UN security council resolutions against them. The argument could be made to invade them. It was the fault line of ethnic groups in the region (Arab, Kurd). It was the fault line of religious groups in the region (Sunni, Shia, lesser extends - Jewish and Christian).

The argument could not be made to invade Tunisia, Egypt, or Jordan.
 
Gardener said:
Not a dogbe, but the understanding of how things work.
Click to expand...

Really. I was under the impression that even in the U.S., the religious right exercises the tyranny of the majority on a pretty much continual basis. So, are we not yet capable of being a democracy, either?
 
Andalublue said:
I note that the Palestinians are doing even better. Imagine, Hamas and Fatah getting something right!
Click to expand...

I don't believe that this statistical data includes the Gaza Strip in it. The West Bank on the other hand is indeed doing better than the majority of the Arab world, a lot due to the fact that Israel has established democratic institutions in the bank when it has given autonomy to the PA in the 80's.
 
What do you think of Al Jazeera? It is in a VERY UNIQUE position within the region. It started around the same time as the response to 9/11. It began criticizing the US involvement in the region. Gained credibility in the Arab world and beyond. Independent of any state in the region. Began criticizing regional governments.

Today is the only conduit to information about the Egyptian protesters, side stepping the Egyptian state television (which is focussed on the pro-M folks), and playing a wonderful PsyOp role.
 
Catz Part Deux said:
Really. I was under the impression that even in the U.S., the religious right exercises the tyranny of the majority on a pretty much continual basis. So, are we not yet capable of being a democracy, either?
Click to expand...

Omg!! Catz that is what I have always felt like. Buts its something most do not want to see. But you Catz have said soomething I have always wanted to say. But you articulated it in such a way. Wow! That is all, Catz keep warm.
 
reefedjib said:
Not at all. It did provide a democratization model to the ME. The biggest problem that had to be dealt with, and fed the difficulties in execution, and still today is the major stumbling block, is the ethnic rivalries. Egypt does not suffer from this.
Click to expand...

Tell that to the Copts!
 
reefedjib said:
What do you think of Al Jazeera? It is in a VERY UNIQUE position within the region. It started around the same time as the response to 9/11. It began criticizing the US involvement in the region. Gained credibility in the Arab world and beyond. Independent of any state in the region. Began criticizing regional governments.

Today is the only conduit to information about the Egyptian protesters, side stepping the Egyptian state television (which is focussed on the pro-M folks), and playing a wonderful PsyOp role.
Click to expand...

Al Jazeera being as biased as Foxnews...I'll check out El Arabiya.
 
Apocalypse said:
I don't believe that this statistical data includes the Gaza Strip in it. The West Bank on the other hand is indeed doing better than the majority of the Arab world, a lot due to the fact that Israel has established democratic institutions in the bank when it has given autonomy to the PA in the 80's.
Click to expand...

Just checked. It does include Gaza. Who'd a thunk?
 
reefedjib said:
****, you are right. I completely forgot about their situation. Are they participating in the protests?
Click to expand...

Not sure, but I would guess so. I haven't heard them mentioned specifically but clearly the anti-Mub movement they are making much of their very broadly-based support.
 
Catz Part Deux said:
Really. I was under the impression that even in the U.S., the religious right exercises the tyranny of the majority on a pretty much continual basis. So, are we not yet capable of being a democracy, either?
Click to expand...

You are now trying to say we are just ike Egypt, are you?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom