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Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

Re: "Beginning of the end" for Egypt's Mubarak, as son and wife flee

Dirty Harry said:
They hate us for a reason. They don't hate Canada, Japan, and Brazil for their way of life.

Supporting ruthless dictators is not only imoral it is against everything this country stands for. Eventually people rise up against them. It's funny how some fight against tyranny in this country but support it in others.
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Actually there has been terrorists attempts in Canada as well as several other democracies. There have been successful Islamic terrorist attacks all over Asia and Africa as well as in Europe. Muslims are now building temples in Central and South America.

Islamism is not exclusive to the United States and anyone who thinks its America's fault just hasn't been paying attention.
 
Re: "Beginning of the end" for Egypt's Mubarak, as son and wife flee

Grant said:
Actually there has been terrorists attempts in Canada as well as several other democracies. There have been successful Islamic terrorist attacks all over Asia and Africa as well as in Europe. Muslims are now building temples in Central and South America.

Islamism is not exclusive to the United States and anyone who thinks its America's fault just hasn't been paying attention.
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Careful you don't destroy some people's version of reality.

Dismantling the Myth of 'Canada the Peacemaker'
 
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digsbe said:
We must remember that Egypt isn't like every other Middle Eastern nation. They are almost half Christian and they seem to take a general stance against terrorism.
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Sure they took a stance against terrorism which is why they received US aid. But this "they" you refer to was Mubarak.

Once he is gone this "they" no longer applies.
 
Kandahar said:
I think that's unlikely. I'm actually in the process of conducting a statistical analysis on the relationship between democracy and economic development for countries that don't have oil-based economies. Egypt has far less freedom than one would expect given its level of economic development, so I expect that deposing Mubarak from power will be a very positive step in the right direction.

I've heard lots of comparisons to the Islamic Revolution in Iran...but this overlooks the fact that Iran is sitting on top of a huge amount of oil, whereas Egypt has very little. Oil is a major factor in how authoritarian a country is. Egypt may not have an easy path to democracy, but I think they'll do far better than Iran did for the simple fact that they aren't cursed with oil wealth.
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You might want to include Canada (and Norway) in your stats. We have a lot of oil and are not authoritarian. And while you are removing oil from the equation, you probably should add Islamic.
 
Grant said:
You might want to include Canada (and Norway) in your stats. We have a lot of oil and are not authoritarian. And while you are removing oil from the equation, you probably should add Islamic.
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I'm mostly looking at relatively poor countries. You're right, Norway is the exception to the rule...but Norway was already an established democracy long before they exported oil. Canada doesn't really export enough oil for me to consider it an "oil-based economy." I only excluded countries where oil exports were responsible for at least 5% of GDP.

I have also analyzed whether Islamic countries are more authoritarian than one would expect given their level of development, after taking into account that they're more likely to have oil. Of the five Arab states that have a GDP per capita under $10,000 and don't have oil, four of them (Morocco, Tunisia, Egypt, and Jordan) are indeed significantly more autocratic than statistics would indicate they should be...which IMO is the impetus for all the protests in the latter three countries. The other Arab state (Palestine) is actually MORE democratic than expected. My conclusion is that the international community has a large impact on Arab democracy. If we want to promote it, as we have done in Palestine, we can. If we want to suppress it, as we have done in the other countries, we can. But I don't see any indication that Arab culture is fundamentally hostile to democracy.

Looking at non-Arab Muslim states, they're all over the place in terms of their level of democracy. I don't really see any pattern that would lead me to the conclusion that Islamic states are more or less receptive to democracy than anyone else. Indonesia, Bangladesh, and Mali are all more democratic than we should expect based on their level of economic development. Afghanistan and the other central Asian "stans" have a strong tendency toward dictatorship, above and beyond what we should expect. Pakistan and most of Western Africa are about as democratic as the statistics would indicate they should be.
 
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:shock::shock::shock:

Yemen president set to stand down
Yemen's president has told parliament he will not seek another term in office or hand power to his son - an apparent reaction to protests in his own country inspired by Tunisia's revolt and the turmoil in Egypt.

The US-allied Ali Abdullah Saleh, who has been in power for nearly 32 years, spoke to lawmakers in both houses of parliament.

Mr Saleh said: "I won't seek to extend my presidency for another term or have my son inherit it."
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The Press Association: Yemen president set to stand down

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Another one bites the dust
 
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reefedjib said:
This is all due to the US installing a democracy in Iraq. :)
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Okay ...

I'm sure Tunisians are very proud of themselves for setting this off.
 
Laila said:
Okay ...

I'm sure Tunisians are very proud of themselves for setting this off.
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Let me ask you a few questions, Liala, and I know you were opposed to the Iraq War and its objective of forming a democracy by external imposition.

What has been the impact in the Arab and broader Muslim world of the debate, negotiation, formation and legislative passage of the Iraqi Constitution?

What has been the impact in the Arab and broader Muslim world of the formation of a diverse variety of political parties in Iraq?

What has been the impact in the Arab and broader Muslim world of the proliferation of voices through various media in Iraq?

What has been the impact in the Arab and broader Muslim world of the coverage of these events in Iraq by Al Jazeera?

The fact that events in Tunisia and Egypt had little to do with established organized political parties is proof that events in Iraq over the past decade had a profound effect on the body politic of those countries.
 
apdst said:
The United States is great. I ate more for supper tonight than most Somalians eat in a week.
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Americans probably ate more for supper than most people eat in a week. that's why 70 percent of them are overweight.

then again, the United States did invent supersizing.
 
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reefedjib said:
You think not? It was the WHOLE POINT of us doing so. To democratize the Middle East. It is working.
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There where democracies in the ME long before Iraq became one. But just like Iraq now, they were not "democratic" democracies.

The Tunisians did not take Iraq as a role model when they revolted against Ben Ali. Nor did the Egyptians. There demonstrations are as a result of decades long poverty and political oppression. The movement started from within and it reached out across the political divide.

Oh and the Americans may have implemented a democracy in Iraq, but it doesn't mean its a very good democracy. Its shabby and political dissent is still crushed. The media is censored and its a controversy to speak out against government institutions.

The Americans have come and gone but in reality very little has changed in the region. The only thing it has inspired is a culture of anti-US hatred.
 
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kaya'08 said:
There where democracies in the ME long before Iraq became one. But just like Iraq now, they were not "democratic" democracies.
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Lebanon is the only one and it's history of civil war and external powers involving themselves in their affairs made it no model for other autocracies to follow. Furthermore, Iraq is certainly a "democratic" democracy and not an autocracy with the fig leaf of elections.

The Tunisians did not take Iraq as a role model when they revolted against Ben Ali. Nor did the Egyptians. There demonstrations are as a result of there decades long poverty and political oppression. It has nothing to do with the US.
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The Tunisians and the Egyptians will absolutely use Iraq as a model for how peacefully transform from an autocracy to a healthy democracy. Of course the demonstrations are a result of their condition, like the Iraqis before them. 7 years of watching the political sphere develop in Iraq, through Al Jazeera for instance, has had a profound impact on the development of popular political will through the rest of the ME. This has translated directly into these demonstrations.

Iraq is a model of democratization for the ME and has kicked off current events.
 
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kaya'08 said:
There where democracies in the ME long before Iraq became one. But just like Iraq now, they were not "democratic" democracies.
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So there were democracies in the Middle East but these democracies weren't democratic. Good analysis.
The Tunisians did not take Iraq as a role model when they revolted against Ben Ali. Nor did the Egyptians. There demonstrations are as a result of decades long poverty and political oppression. The movement started from within and it reached out across the political divide.
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So all of this is just a series of coincidences?

Oh and the Americans may have implemented a democracy in Iraq, but it doesn't mean its a very good democracy. Its shabby and political dissent is still crushed. The media is censored and its a controversy to speak out against government institutions.
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You can say the same thing of Western Europe nations. You preferred the previous democracy in Iraq? You apparently know little of what is going on in Iraq,

The Americans have come and gone but in reality very little has changed in the region.
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Suspicions confirmed. The Americans have not gone. That would be the British. Which 'region has not changed? Iraq?
The only thing it has inspired is a culture of anti-US hatred.
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Again, you're thinking of the BBC and the British.
 
reefedjib said:
Lebanon is the only one and it's history of civil war and external powers involving themselves in their affairs made it no model for other autocracies to follow. Furthermore, Iraq is certainly a "democratic" democracy and not an autocracy with the fig leaf of elections.
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Your defining Iraq but its electoral process. The sad reality is, the media is not free and political dissent is still not tolerated. The Americans left Iraq with a C-grade Democracy.

The Tunisians and the Egyptians will absolutely use Iraq as a model for how peacefully transform from an autocracy to a healthy democracy.
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Nothing about Iraq's transition was peaceful. I suspect Iraq would be the last role model. It was forced onto them and thousands died in the process and continue to do so. Tunisians and Egyptians seek stability, security and freedom - all which are severely lacking in Iraq.

The only role model in the region i can think of is Turkey. Its rapid rise in the Arab world has grabbed the attention of many in the region of its strong Democratic system, economy and its peaceful kemalist transition to Democracy. But Iraq - absolutely not.

Of course the demonstrations are a result of their condition, like the Iraqis before them. 7 years of watching the political sphere peacefully develop in Iraq, through Al Jazeera for instance, has had a profound impact on the development of popular political will through the rest of the ME. This has translated directly into these demonstrations.
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Iraq is a shattered nation. Its political sphere developed reluctantly after US pressure and months of bickering over a coalition government which won Iraq the "longest ever period to form a government" award. Politically it is deadlocked, demographically it is divided, economically it is crippled and the only unified force in the works in that country is Al Qaeda.

Please dont kid yourself.
 
Al Jazeera live! Go go.

Pro/Anti Mubarak protesters are fighting and it's getting violent and the army is not intervening! Many injured :shock:
 
kaya'08 said:
The movement started from within and it reached out across the political divide.

Oh and the Americans may have implemented a democracy in Iraq, but it doesn't mean its a very good democracy. Its shabby and political dissent is still crushed. The media is censored and its a controversy to speak out against government institutions.

The Americans have come and gone but in reality very little has changed in the region. The only thing it has inspired is a culture of anti-US hatred.
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Of course these movements start from within. Again the point of democratizing Iraq.

The Iraqis formed the democracy with our guidance. It was the Iraqis who formed a legislative body to construct a constitution that the entire population of Iraq ratified. It is a shabby and tumultuous democracy, like ours. Political dissent is not crushed. There is little censoring of media (number of Iraqi newspapers). They absolutely speak out against the powers that be. It is, however, a very young democracy with lots of big problems to solve (Kirkuk, Sunnis, oil revenue sharing, ...)

Anti-US sentiment predated Iraq. I agree that our actions in Iraq fostered more Anti-US sentiment, primarily because Arabs think they ought to be able to do this on their own - well, now look at them. The other reason for anti-US sentiment is the touchstone Osama bin Laden used, that we support and prop up autocracies. Well, no longer.
 
Grant said:
So there were democracies in the Middle East but these democracies weren't democratic. Good analysis.
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In other words, they where Democracies but flawed in nature. And Thank you.

So all of this is just a series of coincidences?
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Nothing coincidental about it.


You can say the same thing of Western Europe nations. You preferred the previous democracy in Iraq? You apparently know little of what is going on in Iraq,
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Likewise, there WAS NO Democracy in Iraq "previously".
And your comment about Western Europe shows a lack of political knowledge on your behalf. No room for unsubstantiated garbage here.
And i didnt say i preferred Saddam. Just dont try and sell Iraq as a regional role model.


Suspicions confirmed. The Americans have not gone. That would be the British. Which 'region has not changed? Iraq?
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The bulk of the operations have, and the war there has more or less come to an end. Americans are there to support the security situation, you know what i mean.

Again, you're thinking of the BBC and the British.
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My news source is the CNN among many others.
 
reefedjib said:
Of course these movements start from within. Again the point of democratizing Iraq.

The Iraqis formed the democracy with our guidance. It was the Iraqis who formed a legislative body to construct a constitution that the entire population of Iraq ratified. It is a shabby and tumultuous democracy, like ours. Political dissent is not crushed. There is little censoring of media (number of Iraqi newspapers). They absolutely speak out against the powers that be. It is, however, a very young democracy with lots of big problems to solve (Kirkuk, Sunnis, oil revenue sharing, ...)

Anti-US sentiment predated Iraq. I agree that our actions in Iraq fostered more Anti-US sentiment, primarily because Arabs think they ought to be able to do this on their own - well, now look at them. The other reason for anti-US sentiment is the touchstone Osama bin Laden used, that we support and prop up autocracies. Well, no longer.
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I agree with you, only claims that Iraq inspired Tunisia and Egypt is unfounded and off mark.
 
kaya'08 said:
I agree with you, only claims that Iraq inspired Tunisia and Egypt is unfounded and off mark.
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+1000

Iraq had little to do with this.
The spark for Tunisia's revolution was the humiliation of that poor Tunisian who burned himself alive in despair as a result which angered the people.
The trigger for Egypt in some part is due to Tunisia
 
Al Jazeera. Military is getting involved, weapons is being drawn but not firing and soldiers trying to restore order into the square.

Stupid pro Mubarak protesters.
 
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