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Then why the snide comment about their being immature kids?Yes, they've been doing a fine job of it for over 200 years now.
Then why the snide comment about their being immature kids?Yes, they've been doing a fine job of it for over 200 years now.
You're making a great case why gays shouldn't be allowed to serve openly.
Not a lot of disagreement here. I don't know a lot about this subject, but I'm curious to know about the social dynamics and unit cohesion in coed units of the IDF (of which there are A LOT). EDIT: Correction, the only unisex infantry unit in the IDF seems to be the Caracal Battalion. My question about unit cohesion still stands though.
Is this the fault of the gay Marine? Or his unprofessional teammates? It seems NCOs and officers should be enforcing discipline among the ranks in order to prevent such a scenario?
Could it not be argued that because a Gay Marine can't be honest with his brothers-in-arms (the issue of him hiding his own identity is always in the back of his mind), a psycho-social wall is built up between him and his teammates because of this, and that this secrecy results in an erosion of unit cohesion? In which case perhaps allowing gays to open themselves up would enable other Marines to eventually be more accepting?
You are making a judgment that they outed themselves just to be discharged. That is an asinine statement. You have no proof that this is what any gay or lesbian did.
Yes they are or a bigot. One of the two. Why else would there be a problem with gays and lesbians in service? This is all about bigotry.
Yes, they've been doing a fine job of it for over 200 years now.
Actually I'm proposing that gays living in secrecy already erodes unit cohesion. Gays being allowed to serve openly in the long term would allow for fuller understanding and less homophobia/bigotry among the ranks.
The difference is culture. Out of necessity, man, woman, and child defended the re-birth of Israel. Culturally, this society began coed. However, Israelis also understand that women simply cannot exist in certain senarios. We do not live in a "Starship Trooper" world where we can all shower together and no one notices the differences. Nor can women conduct themselves generally inthe physical manner which is demanded in our fighting units. Someone may produce the exception, but she would be the exception.
Of course it's not the gay fellas fault. And professionalism is always a Marine's duty. However, this doesn't change the reality. I had to of heard at least 10 gay jokes today amongst a group of Marines that were raised in a culture that ridicules gays. Even today, Hollywood uses them as the butt of a joke and Californians refuse them gay rights to marry. But the military (Marines) are supposed to behave as if they emerged from a different culture? This will take time and most gays (if not all) in the Marine Corps will remain private. The problems will be more severe in the other branches due to the lesser degree of discipline, but the Marine Corps will have it's issues as well.
This will all come into play. Part of the Pentagon study was on how to impliment this change with as little effect to mission as possible. The Marine Corps has spent decades reflecting on female Marines as our sisters (which would invoke protection issues in combat if they were in the infantry). The same will eventually have to be applied towards gays. But in the mean time, most of them will remain "in the closet," especially in tighter units. I am a Chief in a team of 17 that gets embedded in the Afghani forces. This makes us pretty tight. I would think that even after some have been fond of gay jokes, that after all this time together if one were to present his truth to us, then we would accept it. But we are all senior in ranks and ridicule and harshness is usually in the youth (lower ranks and Lts). I'm not sure what it would do to that Fire team of 4 or squad of 13 who all age between 18 and 25.
I disagree with much of this. I'm a liberal but I wish to join the 03 Infantry after college and I guess I have an unreasonably idealistic sense of just how professional Marines are supposed to be. But thanks for the honest and reasoned response, Master Sergeant. As an aside, do you think Recon/Force Recon and MARSOC operators are in general more mature and professional than their infantry counterparts?
Then why the snide comment about their being immature kids?
Actually I'm proposing that gays living in secrecy already erodes unit cohesion. Gays being allowed to serve openly in the long term would allow for fuller understanding and less homophobia/bigotry among the ranks.
Hiding my own homophobia. That is a laugh. I am a married lesbian. It would be best to know someone before you make stupid statements like that.
I spent 12 years in the infantry. So, I think I can speak with authority--more authority than an opinion poll--about the inner-workings, attitudes and mentalities of an alpha male dominated environment.
Folks like MSGT, cpwill, Oscar and myself can be considered experts on this issue. But, time and again, we're told that we're wrong and the only evidence that's been presented, to date, is an opinion poll.
For the last time, it WASN'T SOME CIVILIAN OPINION POLL. It was a SURVEY commissioned by the DoD itself. And yes, I value a comprehensive survey more than the evidence of a couple of guys who say they've been there, done tha. But I guess we're not just going to agree on this.
In fact, it is not the only evidence. How do you suppose the Israelis and Brits are doing just fine? The Brits even go to gay pride parades:
In U.K. Military, Gay Pride Shines - World Watch - CBS News
I don't give a **** who did it. And all the British army links that you post don't mean **** to me.
Go jine the Marines, as an 0300 grunt, then come back and tell us what you know about it. If you don't wash out.
No, they might not mean **** to you but it's still relevant to the discussion. So the Brits can do fine, be openly gay, be just as professional, and still maintain unit cohesion. But Americans can't cuz they're ****in immature?
Show all us dumbass combat arms vet how many battles the Brits have been in since they lifted the ban on gays.
Operation Mountain Fury - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Operation Falcon Summit - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Operation Volcano - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Operation Achilles - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Operation Pickaxe-Handle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Operation Panther's Claw - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Operation Moshtarak - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Iraq War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Battle of Umm Qasr - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Battle of Basra (2003) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Siege of U.K. bases in Basra - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Battle of Basra (2008) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
That's it? No, seriously, that's all of them?
The Brits have barely been engaged in Iraq and Afghanistan. And, that's all you have?
When the Brits have the same amount of combat power engaged as the US, get back with us.
The Brits have a smaller military than the US. You expect them to commit the same level of involvement? The size of the British Army is about as large as the Corps. What is this supposed to be, a pissing match? We were talking about unit cohesion.
Ooooooh, so they have a smaller army? I see, so the comparison isn't the same. Yes? They have a much different demographic, too. I mean, there aren't a whole lotta Brits in the US military. Is there?
No, but there seem to be a lot more mature 18-25 year olds who don't seem to have a problem with their fellow fire-team members being openly gay.
As has been pointed out, by others: their's is a different culture. What works for the Brits may not work for the Americans.
Look at Rock-n-Roll. We invented and the Brits had to copy it. Where did the Brits come to make it big on the Rock-n-Roll scene? America! Duh!!