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Abortion Doctor Charged with Murder

Besides, I don't believe every initially unwanted child grows up to be a murderer or a drain on society just as I don't think a "wanted" child from a good home can't wind up being those things.
 
Johnny Centrist said:
Every pro-lifer I've asked on this thread agrees that, at least to some extent that the current Unborn Victim of Violence Act is an appropriate law. However they also state that a fetus before it is viable is not a human life. You seem to understand logic very well, so you must already recognize that both of these can not be true. Someone cannot murder what is not living. Someone cannot commit manslaughter on something that is not human.
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I believe that humanity occurs in stages. Ah, if only we could implement a wholesale gom jabbar program for adults.

BTW, as for the insults, I don't feel I started them, I don't think you and some others on this forum recognize how insulting and condescending your statements can be sometimes. If I post a flawed argument, explain to me logically why that argument is flawed instead using words like silly and ridiculous. That is what a debate forum is for. As for the Dr. Pat guy, he was rude and condescending from the start, and has an affinity for the eye rolling smiling face.
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Do I really need to give you a short summary of your insulting comments?
 
X Factor said:
But if abortion at 8 weeks would have saved people a lot of agony, why wouldn't the same be true if that same guy was aborted at 6, 7 8 months? What happens in the second trimester that makes abortion no longer a viable (no pun intended) solution to an unwanted pregnancy?
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The fetus becomes viable outside the womb, and at that point, its rights trump the mother's rights. A fetus at 7 weeks is a clump of cells that may be flushed from her uterus next week, spontaneously.

This issue is not metaphysical for me, it's medical. I deal with my emotional feelings about abortion by realizing, pragmatically, that we have no realistic means for forcing women to incubate fetuses to full term, and such an act would cause ten million more problems than we currently have.

Do you really want to see women in prison cells for trying to obtain an abortion? I mean, have you really thought through the inevitable results of outlawing abortion wholesale?
 
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jamesrage said:
I never used the term as an insult. I am not going to change the words I use just because you people like to pretend to be offended just so you can keep up the lie that you can be pro-choice and pro-abortion or try to dictate the terms that can be used in an abortion debate. Using the term pro-abortion instead of pro-choice has nothing to do with the definition that abortionist is usually used as an insult or is another term for pro-abortion.
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Well, obviously you mean it in the offensive context considering that you don't consider it to be pro-choice and call it pro-abortion instead. I'm done discussing it with you since you are obviously more interested in using emotional rhetoric than discussing the topic in a civil and rational way.
 
Catz Part Deux said:
I believe that humanity occurs in stages. Ah, if only we could implement a wholesale gom jabbar program for adults.
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You stated that someone who murders a fetus in the first trimester should be convicted of manslaughter. Manslaughter is a crime that only can be done against human beings. Would you agree that women who abort their fetuses in first trimester are committing a legalized form of manslaughter?
 
Moderator's Warning:
Johnny Centrist; Dr_Patrick; Catz Part Deux.... are all under thread-ban at this time. No further posts in this thread by you please.

Thread ban.

You may not post further in this particular thread. If you do so, each subsequent post will be a 5 point infraction.
 
Catz Part Deux said:
The fetus becomes viable outside the womb, and at that point, its rights trump the mother's rights. A fetus at 7 weeks is a clump of cells that may be flushed from her uterus next week, spontaneously.

This issue is not metaphysical for me, it's medical. I deal with my emotional feelings about abortion by realizing, pragmatically, that we have no realistic means for forcing women to incubate fetuses to full term, and such an act would cause ten million more problems than we currently have.
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I don't know Catz. I respect the experiences you've had in dealing with kids from dysfunctional families, but those things are apparently occurring now, while abortion is legal and virtually available on demand.

Do you really want to see women in prison cells for trying to obtain an abortion? I mean, have you really thought through the inevitable results of outlawing abortion wholesale?
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It wasn't all that long ago that abortion was illegal. I don't necessarily think that the best thing to do is criminalize women seeking abortion. I think the focus of the law should be more on those performing abortions.
 
X Factor said:
Abortion Doctor Charged With Murder - WSJ.com

I wonder what makes this doc any different than other abortion doc. I mean, if it's all about choice, why should it matter how far along the pregnancy is when it's terminated?
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I read about this MFer! This is what the liberals have brought us to. All abortion lovers are to blame for this. You and your Roe vs Wade. Don't you be surprised at the disgust from the right, you have it coming.
 
American said:
I read about this MFer! This is what the liberals have brought us to. All abortion lovers are to blame for this. You and your Roe vs Wade. Don't you be surprised at the disgust from the right, you have it coming.
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This guy...This monster would have done this no matter the law.
 
winston53660 said:
This guy...This monster would have done this no matter the law.
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I don't know, Winston. The legality of abortion, even late-term abortion, gave him a legal fiction and front to operate under. The inadequate (all but non-existant) oversight of his facility gave him free reign, under a false-front of legal abortion, to practice his abhorrent infanticide. He was able to hide behind the "color of law" while committing his murders.

Had this not been so, it is uncertain what he may or may not have done. Speculation.

I have long thought that rampant abortion leads to a general callousness about the lives of "unborn" babies... much of his infanticide is merely taking that which IS legal one step further, where the same baby he would have killed IN the womb is killed OUT of the womb. There is a fundamental insanity in the whole partial-birth abortion issue: that if the head of the babe is still in the birth canal when it is killed, it is merely a medical proceedure to remove unwanted tissue, but if the head is out, it is murder. A few inches difference in position makes the difference between unwanted tissue and human baby??

Probably a lot more of this goes on that we know.
 
Goshin said:
I don't know, Winston. The legality of abortion, even late-term abortion, gave him a legal fiction and front to operate under. The inadequate (all but non-existant) oversight of his facility gave him free reign, under a false-front of legal abortion, to practice his abhorrent infanticide. He was able to hide behind the "color of law" while committing his murders.

Had this not been so, it is uncertain what he may or may not have done. Speculation.

I have long thought that rampant abortion leads to a general callousness about the lives of "unborn" babies... much of his infanticide is merely taking that which IS legal one step further, where the same baby he would have killed IN the womb is killed OUT of the womb. There is a fundamental insanity in the whole partial-birth abortion issue: that if the head of the babe is still in the birth canal when it is killed, it is merely a medical proceedure to remove unwanted tissue, but if the head is out, it is murder. A few inches difference in position makes the difference between unwanted tissue and human baby??

Probably a lot more of this goes on that we know.
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It does give one pause. Just who is responsible for regulating the abortion industry?
 
Dutch said:
It does give one pause. Just who is responsible for regulating the abortion industry?
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I don't know about the US, but in all other Western countries, abortion like all other medical procedures is regulated by the local Health Care Department. There must be a government body in each US state that is responsible for making sure each medical practice from big hospitals to small clinics is operating within the law. I don't understand how this man was able to do this for so long without anyone ever saying anything.

My take on this is that it's no so much the legality of abortion that is to blame, but more how far along in the pregnancy abortion is considered legal. With the exception of the UK and Finland, no other Western country other than the US allows elective abortions after the first trimester. This is also where my pro-choice stance ends quite abruptly. I will never support elective abortion past week 12 of pregnancy. I've always been very surprised that the US allows it until week 24 given the continuous, divisive debate on this issue for decades now.
 
Arcana XV said:
I don't know about the US, but in all other Western countries, abortion like all other medical procedures is regulated by the local Health Care Department. There must be a government body in each US state that is responsible for making sure each medical practice from big hospitals to small clinics is operating within the law. I don't understand how this man was able to do this for so long without anyone ever saying anything.

My take on this is that it's no so much the legality of abortion that is to blame, but more how far along in the pregnancy abortion is considered legal. With the exception of the UK and Finland, no other Western country other than the US allows elective abortions after the first trimester. This is also where my pro-choice stance ends quite abruptly. I will never support elective abortion past week 12 of pregnancy. I've always been very surprised that the US allows it until week 24 given the continuous, divisive debate on this issue for decades now.
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Yeah, definitely not one of our finer ideals. It's even worse that, late term abortions are available even after 24 weeks so long as there can be some claim that carrying the baby will harm the mom "mentally". Not a very high obstacle to overcome
As of April 2007, 36 states had bans on late-term abortions that were not facially unconstitutional (i.e. banning all abortions) or enjoined by court order.[16] In addition, the Supreme Court in the case of Gonzales v. Carhart ruled that Congress may ban certain late-term abortion techniques, "both previability and postviability". All[17] of the 36 state bans are believed by pro-choice organizations to be unconstitutional.[18][19] The Supreme Court has held that bans must include exceptions for threats to the woman's life, physical health, and mental health, but four states allow late-term abortions only when the woman's life is at risk; four allow them when the woman's life or physical health is at risk, but use a definition of health that pro-choice organizations believe is impermissibly narrow.[16] Assuming that one of these state bans is constitutionally flawed, then that does not necessarily mean that the entire ban would be struck down: "invalidating the statute entirely is not always necessary or justified, for lower courts may be able to render narrower declaratory and injunctive relief."[20]
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Late-term_abortion

Also notice that pro choice groups think that even late term abortion bans are wrong or unconstitutional. If these groups ulitmately end up getting their way through lobbying efforts or whatever, what the doctor in the OP did would be legal.
 
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winston53660 said:
This guy...This monster would have done this no matter the law.
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This guy has a license to practice till last year. Could it be a coincidence that his attorney is the great-grandson of Brennan of Roe vs Wade fame?
 
American said:
I read about this MFer! This is what the liberals have brought us to. All abortion lovers are to blame for this. You and your Roe vs Wade. Don't you be surprised at the disgust from the right, you have it coming.
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How did liberals bring us to this? You realize that this guy broke the law right? Where did liberals say this was acceptable?
 
Arcana XV said:
I don't know about the US, but in all other Western countries, abortion like all other medical procedures is regulated by the local Health Care Department. There must be a government body in each US state that is responsible for making sure each medical practice from big hospitals to small clinics is operating within the law. I don't understand how this man was able to do this for so long without anyone ever saying anything.

My take on this is that it's no so much the legality of abortion that is to blame, but more how far along in the pregnancy abortion is considered legal. With the exception of the UK and Finland, no other Western country other than the US allows elective abortions after the first trimester. This is also where my pro-choice stance ends quite abruptly. I will never support elective abortion past week 12 of pregnancy. I've always been very surprised that the US allows it until week 24 given the continuous, divisive debate on this issue for decades now.
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This is just one of many issue that divide an already deeply divided nation. I consider this as just another one of the joys of multi-culturalism.
 
X Factor said:
Also notice that pro choice groups think that even late term abortion bans are wrong or unconstitutional. If these groups ulitmately end up getting their way through lobbying efforts or whatever, what the doctor in the OP did would be legal.
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A complete ban on late-term abortions is not a good idea at all. Sometimes, such a procedure is unfortunately necessary. I would agree that the mental health of the mother should never be an excuse tho. But there are other reasons, like certain types of fetal deformity, when a late-term abortion is justifiable.

Also, there is no way that the operation this guy was running would EVER be legal anywhere in the civilized world. Take a look at this article. It describes in detail the atrocious conditions in that "clinic" and the number of people who were complicit in the whole thing:

Philadelphia doctor accused of murdering patient, newborns - CNN.com

Appalling that something like this was allowed to go on in a country like the US. I simply have no words.
 
independent_thinker2002 said:
How did liberals bring us to this? You realize that this guy broke the law right? Where did liberals say this was acceptable?
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........an unintended consequence of the cheaping of human life? Fact is we have somewhere near 50 million dead as a result of roe v wade. The only difference between all of those abortions and these abortions is just a matter of a few weeks. Once you get past all that "taking a human life bit" lousy oversite and throw in economics for boot, just how can you avoid this sort of thing?
 
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American said:
This guy has a license to practice till last year. Could it be a coincidence that his attorney is the great-grandson of Brennan of Roe vs Wade fame?
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My, My, and we come full circle..
 
Dutch said:
........an unintended consequence of the cheaping of human life? Fact is we have somewhere near 50 million dead as a result of roe v wade. The only difference between all of those abortions and these abortions is just a matter of a few weeks. Once you get past all that "taking a human life bit" lousy oversite and throw in economics for boot, just how can you avoid this sort of thing?
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How is this a response to my questions?
 
independent_thinker2002 said:
It's unacceptable. I figured it went without saying.
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I kept asking what this doc did that was so different from other abortion doctors. Your answers were basically only that he broke the law. So I ask, other than breaking the law what has this doc done that's so much more wrong than other abortion doctors?
 
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