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Abortion Doctor Charged with Murder

Johnny Centrist said:
I've never seen a group of people dodge questions as many times as I have in this one single thread. It lets me know they are stumped by my questions or either don't want to admit the fallacies within their own ideologies.
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What's happened here is that you've presented fallacies (false positions that are inherently illogical) in lieu of making a meaningful argument, and you've been held accountable for that.

I've stated clearly why I believe abortion should be legal. Your positions are a patchwork of absurdity cobbled together with wishes and a heavy dose of deluded idealism.

p.s. You will NEVER succeed in out-condescending me.
 
Dr_Patrick said:
Considering that you are a newbie around here, it's probably best not to throw your weight around like you are Mr. Big Stuff right out of the gate. Others have tried and failed.
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Stay on topic doc patty cake. No one cares how long you've been part of an internet forum.
 
Catz Part Deux said:
What's happened here is that you've presented fallacies (false positions that are inherently illogical) in lieu of making a meaningful argument, and you've been held accountable for that.
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So you finally want to debate? Good. So do you believe in the current Unborn Victims of Violence Act law, that charges people with murder who kill the fetus of a pregnant woman?
 
Johnny Centrist said:
Stay on topic doc patty cake. No one cares how long you've been part of an internet forum.
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On the contrary. Stripes are earned, even here.

Some posters think the best way to get respect is to insult others. Debate doesn't involve insulting other people -- neither for their ideas, nor for their beliefs. That is a lesson you apparently have yet to learn. In another incarnation here or on other debate forums you've left...
 
Johnny Centrist said:
So you finally want to debate? Good. So do you believe in the current Unborn Victims of Violence Act law, that charges people with murder who kill the fetus of a pregnant woman?
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In some circumstances, I believe that charging people who intentionally kill an unborn baby is rational. However, I see this act as primarily political posturing.

I'd prefer that our laws in regards to abortion be based upon sane medical practices, and not on the fanatics at either end of the spectrum, with their inability to compromise.

Is killing a fetus at 2 weeks the same as killing a fetus at 38 weeks?
 
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Johnny Centrist said:
So you finally want to debate?
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I see what you did there. I bet other people will, as well.

For what it's worth, since you're new here...posting fallacies isn't debating. When I have to debunk your fallacious arguments because you can't cobble together something rational, that's annoying.

So, if and when you post a rational position, I'll be happy to debate. But, I don't feel obligated to disprove something that is obviously false (aka a fallacy). No one should, really.

Before you post here, perhaps you should consider ensuring that your posts are not constructed in such a way as to be logically false.
 
Catz Part Deux said:
X-factor:

I see you're on the thread. I'm interested in your response to my rather lengthy post in response to your question. You can find it here:

http://www.debatepolitics.com/break...-doctor-charged-murder-22.html#post1059229445
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Two words for you: birth control and adoption. American couples fly to countries like Russia and China every year to spend 30,000+ to adopt kids. I don't understand why pro-lifers believe kids of unwanted pregnancies would have no homes if they just improved the American adoption system. Also, birth control works. People just don't use it like they should. There should be more education and more easily available birth control. Terminating 4 month old fetuses to fix the problem is an end justifies the means. I'm not much of a Machiavellian.
 
MaggieD said:
Exactly right. ...intended as an offensive term. I prefer Merriam Webster's definition.
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Notice that it said usually intend as an offensive term, meaning it is not always used as an offensive term. And it still proves that pro-abortion is synonymous with abortionist.
 
MaggieD said:
On the contrary. Stripes are earned, even here.

Some posters think the best way to get respect is to insult others. Debate doesn't involve insulting other people -- neither for their ideas, nor for their beliefs. That is a lesson you apparently have yet to learn. In another incarnation here or on other debate forums you've left...
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I don't care about your respect, or your stripes and definitely not here to make friends. I'm here to debate. If people insult me and speak to me in condescending tones then I return the favor.
 
jamesrage said:
Notice that it said usually intend as an offensive term, meaning it is not always used as an offensive term. And it still proves that pro-abortion is synonymous with abortionist.
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Are you saying that you didn't mean it as an insult? If that is the case, why not refer to pro-choice people as pro-choice?
 
Johnny Centrist said:
Two words for you: birth control and adoption. American couples fly to countries like Russia and China every year to spend 30,000+ to adopt kids. I don't understand why pro-lifers believe kids of unwanted pregnancies would have no homes if they just improved the American adoption system. Also, birth control works. People just don't use it like they should. There should be more education and more easily available birth control. Terminating 4 month old fetuses to fix the problem is an end justifies the means. I'm not much of a Machiavellian.
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I have family who are right now trying to adopt a Korean baby. Why? Because the wait for a baby in the United States is soooo long. Just like puppies at the pound. Somebody'll take those -- but the 6-year-olds? Dogs/kids -- not enough takers.
 
Catz Part Deux said:
In some circumstances, I believe that charging people who intentionally kill an unborn baby is rational.
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So if a male punches a woman in the stomach with the intention of killing her 12 week old fetus, and succeeds, do you believe he should be charged with murder as our current laws stipulate?
 
Johnny Centrist said:
Two words for you: birth control and adoption. American couples fly to countries like Russia and China every year to spend 30,000+ to adopt kids. I don't understand why pro-lifers believe kids of unwanted pregnancies would have no homes if they just improved the American adoption system. Also, birth control works. People just don't use it like they should. There should be more education and more easily available birth control. Terminating 4 month old fetuses to fix the problem is an end justifies the means. I'm not much of a Machiavellian.
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American couples want perfect infants. They don't want 4 year old fetal alcohol syndrome black children from the foster care system whose mothers weren't suited to be mothers. I work in the system, finding placements for the types of children who result from unwanted pregnancies is extremely difficult, which is why these children languish in foster care for years.

And let me ask you something else: If a woman can't figure out how to successfully work birth control, do you think she's going to be successful at managing her pregnancy to bring about a healthy baby, and then will succeed in working through the adoption process? Because, frankly, I work with these types of people and have done so for the past 20 years. I think you're really mistaken if you think that this is all going to end well, for the babies.

Your position seems to bear little relationship to the reality of unwanted children.

I believe that abortion should be legal through the first trimester, but that once a fetus becomes viable outside the womb (at present, around 24 weeks), it should be strictly illegal.
 
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Johnny Centrist said:
So if a male punches a woman in the stomach with the intention of killing her 12 week old fetus, and succeeds, do you believe he should be charged with murder as our current laws stipulate?
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It would largely depend on the circumstances of the case. I would prefer to see him charged with manslaughter or reckless endangerment. After 24 weeks, however, I consider murder an appropriate charge.

See, we're talking about biology here. And 1/3 of all pregnancies actually are naturally terminated (biologically speaking) during the first trimester. So, I have some ethical qualms about charging someone with homicide/murder for ending a pregnancy at that point.
 
Johnny Centrist said:
So if a male punches a woman in the stomach with the intention of killing her 12 week old fetus, and succeeds, do you believe he should be charged with murder as our current laws stipulate?
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You failed to answer my question. Is a 2-week-old fetus the same as a 38-week-old fetus?
 
Catz Part Deux said:
American couples want perfect infants. They don't want 4 year old fetal alcohol syndrome black children from the foster care system whose mothers weren't suited to be mothers. I work in the system, finding placements for the types of children who result from unwanted pregnancies is extremely difficult, which is why these children languish in foster care for years.

And let me ask you something else: If a woman can't figure out how to successfully work birth control, do you think she's going to be successful at managing her pregnancy to bring about a healthy baby, and then will succeed in working through the adoption process?

Your position seems to bear little relationship to the reality of unwanted children.

I believe that abortion should be legal through the first trimester, but that once a fetus becomes viable outside the womb (at present, around 24 weeks), it should be strictly illegal.
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I have done lots of volunteer work with these same types of kids in downtown Atlanta, Miami and San Francisco. As much as it hurts me to see kids in these positions, most of them are great and have an eagerness to learn and live life when they are guided by the right role models. I think the concern should be improving the adoption or foster care system, instead of killing them off. Personally, if you want to know the truth, I believe in temporary sterilization of certain individuals who have a long history of mental illness, drug abuse and/or criminal activity, that could be reversed if they ever prove they are able to function in society. I also believe in forced birth control for kids under 18. These are incredibly extreme positions and they would never fly in America and most people think those ideas are too Nazish, but I've seen the same things you have, and I know a large percentage of the people who have kids, don't need to be having kids. However, something in my soul can't agree with terminating fetuses that are more than 30 days old.
 
Dr_Patrick said:
Are you saying that you didn't mean it as an insult? If that is the case, why not refer to pro-choice people as pro-choice?
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I never used the term as an insult. I am not going to change the words I use just because you people like to pretend to be offended just so you can keep up the lie that you can be pro-choice and pro-abortion or try to dictate the terms that can be used in an abortion debate. Using the term pro-abortion instead of pro-choice has nothing to do with the definition that abortionist is usually used as an insult or is another term for pro-abortion.
 
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Catz Part Deux said:
X-factor:

I see you're on the thread. I'm interested in your response to my rather lengthy post in response to your question. You can find it here:

http://www.debatepolitics.com/break...-doctor-charged-murder-22.html#post1059229445
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Yes, I read it. When I asked the question, I don't think I expected an answer, much less a good one, and I think your post is a good one, definitely worth thinking about. However, I'm just never going to be able to accept the premise that aborting babies for society's good is the right thing. If it is, why should there be any outcry over what the doc in the OP has done? By all accounts, he was providing abortions for just the type of women you described. I think society, with all it's laws trying to protect children, has decided that children need protection, even from the parents if necessary. To me, the rationale behind those laws should be just the same, whether the child is born or not. Children in bad homes is a heartbreaking thing, but worse, I think, is to never give that child a chance in the first place. If we're looking at whether it's a mistake to let a child be born, I think we should err on the side of life.
 
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Johnny Centrist said:
I have done lots of volunteer work with these same types of kids in downtown Atlanta, Miami and San Francisco. As much as it hurts me to see kids in these positions, most of them are great and have an eagerness to learn and live life when they are guided by the right role models. I think the concern should be improving the adoption or foster care system, instead of killing them off. Personally, if you want to know the truth, I believe in temporary sterilization of certain individuals who have a long history of mental illness, drug abuse and/or criminal activity, that could be reversed if they ever prove they are able to function in society. I also believe in forced birth control for kids under 18. These are incredibly extreme positions and they would never fly in America and most people think those ideas are too Nazish, but I've seen the same things you have, and I know a large percentage of the people who have kids, don't need to be having kids. However, something in my soul can't agree with terminating fetuses that are more than 30 days old.
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I have zero problems with forced sterilization for people with a track record of abuse/neglect.

I don't like the idea of abortion. It's a nasty, nasty procedure. But, having spent a considerable amount of time contemplating the lives that some of these unwanted kids lead, I have to say (again)...

If a woman really cares so little that she will have her baby sucked out of her uterus and down a drain, she should not have a baby, even if that baby will be given up for adoption immediately. The odds that this person will successfully carry the baby to term, without causing major health problems (like fetal alcohol syndrome) are small. There is a part of all of us which sees this as a major tragedy, and it is.

I just don't believe that we can force women to carry babies they don't want, and have that end up all hunky dory. It doesn't.

So...ideologically, I get it. Abortions are terrible. I could never have one, myself. But, there are worse scenarios than abortion. I've seen them, up close and personal.
 
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X Factor said:
why should there be any outcry over what the doc in the OP has done?
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Because there is a huge difference between a fully viable 7 month old infant and a non-viable 10-week old fetus.

I used to feel very differently, but I had a miscarriage at 12 weeks. I did a lot of research and found that the body naturally terminates 1/3 of all pregnancies. They're biologically non-viable. Most women have had spontaneous abortions and never knew it, they just thought they were having a heavier than usual menstrual flow.

I think we have to be rational about all of this. I'm pro-life. I believe in ending abortions after a certain point (after the first trimester would be my choice). But, we have to allow some kind of outlet here for those women who should not be having babies.

I've worked with kids that were abused their entire lives and are now in the prison system for killing someone else. As harsh as this sounds, it would have been better for those kids to have been terminated at 8 weeks. It would have saved them---and multiple other people---a lot of agony.
 
Catz Part Deux said:
It would largely depend on the circumstances of the case. I would prefer to see him charged with manslaughter
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"Manslaughter is the legal term for the killing of a human being." Manslaughter - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

My problem with the current abortion laws is the blatant hypocrisy. Every pro-lifer I've asked on this thread agrees that, at least to some extent that the current Unborn Victim of Violence Act is an appropriate law. However they also state that a fetus before it is viable is not a human life. You seem to understand logic very well, so you must already recognize that both of these can not be true. Someone cannot murder what is not living. Someone cannot commit manslaughter on something that is not human.

BTW, as for the insults, I don't feel I started them, I don't think you and some others on this forum recognize how insulting and condescending your statements can be sometimes. If I post a flawed argument, explain to me logically why that argument is flawed instead using words like silly and ridiculous. That is what a debate forum is for. As for the Dr. Pat guy, he was rude and condescending from the start, and has an affinity for the eye rolling smiling face.

Dr_Patrick said:
Again, is it really that hard for you to come up with an example that actually is in line with the topic at hand?
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Dr_Patrick said:
Seriously, do yourself a favor and do some research on what a fetus develops in between that time.
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Dr_Patrick said:
It's sad that you can't see the difference between the two.
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Dr_Patrick said:
I'm sorry if that answer isn't sufficient for you, but I'm not going to feed into your whacked out scenario to help prove your weak point. If you don't like that, feel free to discuss the issue with someone else.
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That's respect?
 
Catz Part Deux said:
Because there is a huge difference between a fully viable 7 month old infant and a non-viable 10-week old fetus.

I used to feel very differently, but I had a miscarriage at 12 weeks. I did a lot of research and found that the body naturally terminates 1/3 of all pregnancies. They're biologically non-viable. Most women have had spontaneous abortions and never knew it, they just thought they were having a heavier than usual menstrual flow.

I think we have to be rational about all of this. I'm pro-life. I believe in ending abortions after a certain point (after the first trimester would be my choice). But, we have to allow some kind of outlet here for those women who should not be having babies.

I've worked with kids that were abused their entire lives and are now in the prison system for killing someone else. As harsh as this sounds, it would have been better for those kids to have been terminated at 8 weeks. It would have saved them---and multiple other people---a lot of agony.
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But if abortion at 8 weeks would have saved people a lot of agony, why wouldn't the same be true if that same guy was aborted at 6, 7 8 months? What happens in the second trimester that makes abortion no longer a viable (no pun intended) solution to an unwanted pregnancy?
 
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