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Women Should Be Allowed in Combat Units, Report Says

:) feel free to wonder on over to the military threads where we had this debate out; soldier. Though to be fair, there was one of me and three or four army bubba's; so admittedly they were outnumbered ;)


:lamo...that's a good one.
 
:) feel free to wonder on over to the military threads where we had this debate out; soldier. Though to be fair, there was one of me and three or four army bubba's; so admittedly they were outnumbered ;)

I wish I had a dollar for every marine I had to scrape off the sidewalk because he believed that crap his drill told him about a marine being worth 10 soldiers. :lamo
 
That argument doesn't work. If what your saying is true, we have to stop taking voluntary recruits from out of high school and start drafting from among people in their 20s.

To the extent immaturity does exist among soldiers, it has to be purged, not indulged.

I wouldn't call it "immaturity," I'd call it human nature. When you mix any appreciable number of men and women, under practically any circumstances, they're going to be going at it -- and there will be pregnancies, drama, and health issues -- rules, laws, or conditions bedamned. And that goes for people in their teens, 20s, 30s, and on up. I imagine there's un upper age limit where this rule is applicable, but that group's gonna be way too old to be combat effective.

This becomes a problem when a unit doesn't have easy access to all the amenities people are generally used to in everyday life -- amenities which can be found on any major base, but not in a FOB that's basically an abandoned gas station reinforced with sandbags and scrap car-parts.
 
it's not necessarily that they are too immature at all things; it's just that 19-21 year olds tend to be inordinately controlled by their sex organs. Discipline on patrol in a combat zone is very different (easier, in many ways) than discipline relaxing on the FOB. that same aggression and hyper-testosterone that makes one a good combat soldier / Marine also makes one more likely to not give a **** about what the rules say about whether or not you can have sex with the cute (and after a few months, they're all attractive) LCpl from dispersing. In addition, the tendency of stressful situations to throw the sex drive into overdrive is well documented.

Those are all valid objections, but I don't think they are insurmountable obstacles.

I wouldn't call it "immaturity," I'd call it human nature. When you mix any appreciable number of men and women, under practically any circumstances, they're going to be going at it -- and there will be pregnancies, drama, and health issues -- rules, laws, or conditions bedamned. And that goes for people in their teens, 20s, 30s, and on up. I imagine there's un upper age limit where this rule is applicable, but that group's gonna be way too old to be combat effective.

This becomes a problem when a unit doesn't have easy access to all the amenities people are generally used to in everyday life -- amenities which can be found on any major base, but not in a FOB that's basically an abandoned gas station reinforced with sandbags and scrap car-parts.

Thing is, I believe those are problems specific to having any women in the military at all, as opposed to a minority serving in combat roles.
 
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How am I playing "what if?"

You are trying to take specific situations or "what ifs" as proof of something, it's not.

Certain women have the physical capability to be front-line soldiers. That's true. Put them through a meritocratic process of selection.

It is in my opinion and experience not worth the money or effort to do so. As soon as women can play professional sports with men, I would then change my tune. Until then it is not worth it.

Then there is the theory that somehow the men majority will not be able to reconcile themselves to the presence of a women minority, which is at least as theoretical as the idea that they will respond favorably. Both are "what-if's."

I don't really agree with that argument anyway. I think solders can handle themselves but as with the incidents of Drill Instructors taking advantage of trainee's you are increasing the chances of such incidents.
 
lol, that's just what they want you to believe.

I have a buddy who was in the 101st; which is supposedly one of the 'elite' divisions etc. I remember talking to him and he was complaining (he was an infantry platoon commander) because out of the previous 5 months, his guys had spent about a week and a half in the field with their weapons, and he was getting in trouble for pushing for more field evolutions. It blew me away. We were in the field (also infantry) every week from Tuesday morning through Thursday night; and that was when we were "in garrison". when we were on training deployments (which during one work up was about every other to every third month, and during the second was every single month) we typically spent 2-3 weeks in the field straight.
 
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Those are all valid objections, but I don't think they are insurmountable obstacles.

they're not insurmountable; we will still do the job. more of us will just die doing it.


that's sort of what we are trying to avoid, here.
 
Thing is, I believe those are problems specific to having any women in the military at all, as opposed to a minority serving in combat roles.

And, as I mentioned, amenities and facilities to help cope with such situations are available on major bases where these issues do arise, but aren't insurmountable. Not the same at a FOB with a single squad and a single corpsman/medic available -- and where manpower is already at a premium.
 
I have a buddy who was in the 101st; which is supposedly one of the 'elite' divisions etc. I remember talking to him and he was complaining (he was an infantry platoon commander) because out of the previous 5 months, his guys had spent about a week and a half in the field with their weapons, and he was getting in trouble for pushing for more field evolutions. It blew me away. We were in the field (also infantry) every week from Tuesday morning through Thursday night; and that was when we were "in garrison". when we were on training deployments (which during one work up was about every other to every third month, and during the second was every single month) we typically spent 2-3 weeks in the field straight.

you don't have to be living in the field to be training. work smarter, not harder. :lamo
 
How does that matter exactly? How does the background of the combat they've seen matters as long as they've seen combat?
Whether you are exchanging fire with hostiles during an all out war or are assaulted by militants during a sole incident you are still involved in combat and have thus 'seen combat'.

Because combat, at any level, reduces a unit's combat power. The higher the intensity of the combat situation, the better a unit has to be to withstand the loss of more combat power. A three day battle that costs a unit 25% casualties will tell you more about the ability of that unit than a 30 minute firefight, where there are only a few WIA's.



Forgive me for not reading all of your comments in this thread, what is it about then if not the ability of females to serve in roles that require the skills of combat and survivability?

Ass the IDF discovered in '48, the propensity of male soldiers to fall out of the attack to aid a wounded female, even if she wass beyond help, moreso than they would for a wounded male, which weakened the assault effort.

There are housing issues. Infantry units exhibit high levels of unit cohesion--higher than that of support arms units. One of the primary reasons for that, is that they all live together. There's a level of comaradeie that can only be achieved by soldiers living together. Personality conflicts are more readily resolved, because there's no going home at 5:00 and forgetting about the bad day at the office.

There's also the hygene issue, what with women having bleeding cracks every month. In the U.S. Army, regulations state that a female soldier must be given access to a hot shower, during her cycle. As Oscar pointed out earlier, the chicks getting hot showers and the dudes having to wash their balls in a cold bucket of water is going to breed resentment and damage morale and unit cohesion.

Then, there's the privacy issue. A female might refuse her hot shower and prefer to wash her cooter in a bucket, just like the guys, but she's going to want her privacy. And, God forbid someone accidentally see her washing her *****; then she's going to be screaming sexual harrassment.

We're talking about troops on a battlefield; there's no time for all that crap.
 
There's also the hygene issue, what with women having bleeding cracks every month. In the U.S. Army, regulations state that a female soldier must be given access to a hot shower, during her cycle. As Oscar pointed out earlier, the chicks getting hot showers and the dudes having to wash their balls in a cold bucket of water is going to breed resentment and damage morale and unit cohesion.

another point; i've been lots of places where for weeks on end... there just was no "hot water"; unless you happened to leave it out in the sun and it happened to be summer. showers (along with real food, internet, etc) were things that happened to you when you went back to the rear.

Then, there's the privacy issue. A female might refuse her hot shower and prefer to wash her cooter in a bucket, just like the guys, but she's going to want her privacy. And, God forbid someone accidentally see her washing her *****; then she's going to be screaming sexual harrassment.

bingo. prepare for a large number of 'harrasment' cases followed by a large number of '**** we got caught and i don't want to get in trouble so it's RAPE' cases.
 
Those are all valid objections, but I don't think they are insurmountable obstacles.



Thing is, I believe those are problems specific to having any women in the military at all, as opposed to a minority serving in combat roles.

The part you're missing, is that combat arms units, especially armor and infantry, are designed to spend weeks at a time away from any kind of amenities.

Example: During Desert Storm, we had to ration water, because our LOGPAC (resupply convoy) kept getting lost, couldn't keep up with us and on a couple of occasions got hammered by an Iraqi arty battery that the zoomies weren't able to locate. Water rationing meant that there was no water available for personal hygene. What happens in that situation when a woman has to wash her cooter and can't? How long before the company commander is calling a dustoff, to chopper her and her sick ***** back to the brigade hospital? How long is she going to be seperated from the unit? There aren't any temporary replacements, so her platoon is going to be a soldier short and someone is going to have to carry her load, while she's gone.
 
another point; i've been lots of places where for weeks on end... there just was no "hot water"; unless you happened to leave it out in the sun and it happened to be summer. showers (along with real food, internet, etc) were things that happened to you when you went back to the rear.

and in some instances there is NO water for showers. I went 53 days during desert storm without a shower. we just didn't have the water, had to save it to drink.



bingo. prepare for a large number of 'harrasment' cases followed by a large number of '**** we got caught and i don't want to get in trouble so it's RAPE' cases.

I was investigating officer on such a case. guy and (married) girl had been going at it for weeks. one night they happen to get caught by 1SG and she cries rape. fortunately, somewhat, for him he had been recording their sessions. when faced with video evidence of her willingness she then wanted us to charge him for recording her without her consent.
 
I was investigating officer on such a case. guy and (married) girl had been going at it for weeks. one night they happen to get caught by 1SG and she cries rape. fortunately, somewhat, for him he had been recording their sessions. when faced with video evidence of her willingness she then wanted us to charge him for recording her without her consent.

When I was in C 3/41 INF, a platoon leader in B 3/41 got caught, in a hummvee, on post, while his unit was in the field, plowing the 18 y/o daughter of an officer in another battalion. She started screaming rape and unfortunately, he wasn't recording anything and they smoked his ass. Poor bastard didn't even get burned for misuse of a government vehicle, or being AWOL from his unit, or any of the other half dozen offenses he was guilty of. He got charged with rape, period.
 
Marines, because sailors aren't allowed to have sheep aboard ship. :lamo

:) Number of Marines Captured in Iraq and Afghanistan Combined: zero (though we had one go native).

Number of Army Personnel Captured.... still rising.

again, come on down to the thread in the warfare forum. :)

i remember one time we were out combing for three Army guys who had gotten snatched, when over the radio (platoon net) we started up trying to figure out how they'd gotten captured in the first place. I was the CLIC, so I explained that they had been in a convoy that got hit by an IED, and the rest of the convoy had sped up, driven off, and not come back for the downed vic for almost half an hour. Platoon Sgt was furious, wanted to know if the Convoy Commander was going to get court-martialed, etc. I had to explain that it turned out that that was actually the units SOP for dealing with an IED attack... long pause, and then a (unidentified) long-suffering voice came over the net; "Well, if they're going to be retarted, I say **** em". you kinda had to be there, and looking back it was pretty ****ty of us considering those guys were for all we knew being tortured at that moment, but we laughed until we cried.
 
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Because combat, at any level, reduces a unit's combat power. The higher the intensity of the combat situation, the better a unit has to be to withstand the loss of more combat power. A three day battle that costs a unit 25% casualties will tell you more about the ability of that unit than a 30 minute firefight, where there are only a few WIA's.

Fair enough, but I can tell you that female soldiers have indeed seen combat in the 2006 war in Lebanon and the 2009 one in Gaza. The former lasted 34 days and the latter three weeks.

Ass the IDF discovered in '48, the propensity of male soldiers to fall out of the attack to aid a wounded female, even if she wass beyond help, moreso than they would for a wounded male, which weakened the assault effort.

The "discovery" in '48 was rejected in '95 if I'm not wrong, and from there onwards female involvement in combat roles has been increasing drastically from year to year. Otherwise females would not have been allowed to serve in front-line combat units these days, right?

There are housing issues. Infantry units exhibit high levels of unit cohesion--higher than that of support arms units. One of the primary reasons for that, is that they all live together. There's a level of comaradeie that can only be achieved by soldiers living together. Personality conflicts are more readily resolved, because there's no going home at 5:00 and forgetting about the bad day at the office.

I happen to know that, but I do not see where the different gender problem kicks in.

There's also the hygene issue, what with women having bleeding cracks every month. In the U.S. Army, regulations state that a female soldier must be given access to a hot shower, during her cycle. As Oscar pointed out earlier, the chicks getting hot showers and the dudes having to wash their balls in a cold bucket of water is going to breed resentment and damage morale and unit cohesion.

I believe they are using the same water for the entire unit. If the water is hot for one soldier it is also hot for another.
Edit: My mistake, I see you are claiming that the male soldiers would have to wash themselves with buckets, but if there is a shower I don't understand the reason.

Then, there's the privacy issue. A female might refuse her hot shower and prefer to wash her cooter in a bucket, just like the guys, but she's going to want her privacy. And, God forbid someone accidentally see her washing her *****; then she's going to be screaming sexual harrassment.

Shower time rotations, we also have it non-combat units, no problem there.

We're talking about troops on a battlefield; there's no time for all that crap.

If there's time for them to shower then there's time for 'that crap'.
In the case of war you usually don't get to shower at all when you're deep within the field.
 
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:) Number of Marines Captured in Iraq and Afghanistan Combined: zero (though we had one go native).

Number of Army Personnel Captured.... still rising.

again, come on down to the thread in the warfare forum. :)

i remember one time we were out combing for three Army guys who had gotten snatched, when over the radio (platoon net) we started up trying to figure out how they'd gotten captured in the first place. I was the CLIC, so I explained that they had been in a convoy that got hit by an IED, and the rest of the convoy had sped up, driven off, and not come back for the downed vic for almost half an hour. Platoon Sgt was furious, wanted to know if the Convoy Commander was going to get court-martialed, etc. I had to explain that it turned out that that was actually the units SOP for dealing with an IED attack... long pause, and then a (unidentified) long-suffering voice came over the net; "Well, if they're going to be retarted, I say **** em". you kinda had to be there, and looking back it was pretty ****ty of us considering those guys were for all we knew being tortured at that moment, but we laughed until we cried.


So, what's the Corps's SOP? To stay in the kill zone? Please, tell me I'm wrong.
 
I happen to know that, but I do not see where the different gender problem kicks in.

no cohabitation. for patently obvious reasons.

I believe they are using the same water for the entire unit. If the water is hot for one soldier it is also hot for another.

an unlimited supply of hot water in a shower facility? hells yeah! how the hell did you pull that off?

If there's time for them to shower then there's time for 'that crap'.
In the case of war you usually don't get to shower at all when you're deep within the field.

exactly.
 
So, what's the Corps's SOP? To stay in the kill zone? Please, tell me I'm wrong.

Turn and assault. Engage in some damn maneuver warfare. Maybe (gosh this is crazy) provide some covering fire while you recover your wounded. Worst case scenario, destroy the radio and any equipment that can't be easily moved and get your people out. under no circumstances ever are you to leave three of your guys, wounded, in a downed vic while you flee to safety. In fact, if you were to order a Marine squad leader to do leave one of his teams, he would most likely simply mutiny. And the entire platoon would follow him. and then your platoon sgt (i have seen this) would slap you in the face with a kevlar and tell you to shut the **** up and sit the **** down.
 
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Fair enough, but I can tell you that female soldiers have indeed seen combat in the 2006 war in Lebanon and the 2009 one in Gaza. The former lasted 34 days and the latter three weeks.

Not the same intensity and intensity is important.



The "discovery" in '48 was rejected in '95 if I'm not wrong, and from there onwards female involvement in combat roles has been increasing drastically from year to year. Otherwise females would not have been allowed to serve in front-line combat units these days, right?

It was rejected for political reasons. Not because the IDF commanders had an epiphany and decided that coed infantry units would be the best thing since sliced bread. The, "discovery", was made by the IDF and it was, "rejected", by a judge.



I happen to know that, but I do not see where the different gender problem kicks in.

That's one of the problems that will cause damage to unit cohesion.



I believe they are using the same water for the entire unit. If the water is hot for one soldier it is also hot for another.

Not if the females are being transported to a different area to get their hot shower, while the male soldiers are washing their nads in a bucket, next their foxhole.



Shower time rotations, we also have it non-combat units, no problem there.

Refer back to Oscar's post where he mentioned going 53 days without a shower.



If there's time for them to shower then there's time for 'that crap'.
In the case of war you usually don't get to shower at all when you're deep within the field.

Which is exaclty the point I've been trying to make.
 
Turn and assault. under no circumstances ever are you to leave three of your guys, wounded, in a downed vic while you flee to safety.

All the time?
 
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