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Obama, In A Blow To Closing Guantanamo, Signs Law

Grant said:
But no one is debating "your point". It is agreed by everyone that the military should not be above the law. Also no one has said "Go, it's yours".

Can you please explain why you are not using quotes but instead arguing points that were never raised? I cannot debate phantom arguments.
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I actually believe I am addressing a point brought up in this thought:

When we are at war, and indeed we are at war with Islamist terrorists, we are better off to trust our military than not.
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Both rule law and civilan control won't allow that.

If you want to debate Dresden then do so, but according to the facts and not a science fiction novel
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It goes to the claim you made that we don't oppose or openly oppose these things in the past. We did. Didn't have instant media, and like today, we often spoke in oter medium, like in novels. But, people did nenounce wrong acts even then.

You didn't need to point out either that Islam is a religion. I think pretty much every literate person in the world understands that. Why bother adding points that need not be made? And who is against Islam? Are you really reading the posts?
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You said we were fighting Islam. That is fighting a religion.

There is no country called Islam, but there are certainly Islamic dominated countries. And those Islamic terrorists you referred to are the ones we are after.And of course the KKK and skinheads are not relevant too the discussion, nor are there countries where they dominate.
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None of those countries attacked us either. And those terrorist who attacked us came form SA, not Iraq. Not Afghanistan. And they can be found in nearly every country in the world. Again, no country attacked us. And you miss the point with the KKK and the skin heads. If I were to say that we need to stop Christains, or fight Christians, because of acts by people in the KKK or skinheads, then I would eb doing what you're doing with Islam.


Those who were behind the act, an act of war, were going to be tried in NYC to allow them a political platform and upset an entire city. This would made a helluva precedent. Terrorists have homes and support and we must attack them where they live. I hope you are not making the claim that it is only terrorists who attack and there are no support groups, or governments, behind them.
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So, trying Mcvey in Oklamhoma city would have been too upsetting to them, and allow him a platform so we shouldn't have done it? Your argument makes no sense to me. It shoudln't make sense to anyone.


Really? How so?
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As noted by Scheuer in Imperial Hubris, it allowed OBL a second bite at the apples, giving him a place to hurt us and bled us finnacially. Frankly, he had no way to hurt us so without brining our armed forces closer to him. It helped him on the propaganda front, and as the CIA pointed out some time ago, those trained in Iraq will be killing us for a long time to come. People not associated with any terrorist group prior to us invading Iraq answered the call to join, thus helping OBl with recriutment. it also took a small, limited organization and elevated their status, as being worth of being at war with a country as large as the US. And these are just a few ways.

Innocent people, if they are innocent, will always be killed in a war. Two is practically nothing compared with 9/11 and the hundreds of other terrorist acts directed against innocent and unwary people. Consider them occasionally. And my trust doesn't have to be blind.
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Which is why war should be used only when neccessary. but they weren't kiled during a war, like in a firefight. but were picked up, while working, wrongly accused, tortured and killed. This is and should be illegal and denounced, always. Not excused. And it is aprt of the problem with having a place not subject to oversight, left to be run by those hammers who always see a nail, even when one isn';t there.


We can chose who to treat with some skepticism. You chose the military and I choose terrorists. And as for honesty and openness, dishonesty is encouraged in Islam (Al quaeda) and also by those who train the terrorists.
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Al queads is Islam? See you're doing it again, making the two the same thing. They are not.

Second point. Deception is taught to many, including those in the US military. How to resist torture is also taught, also to the US military. This is understood all around. It is not the religion, Islam, that teaches deception. As well read as you are, you still need to make the proper distinctions.

terrorism is nothing more than a tactic. Christians used in in the conflict between Ireland and great Brittin. During that conflict, deception was used, even taught as a tactic. but we would not say, and be correct, that Christianity teaches deception.
 
ReverendHellh0und said:
Obama get that gitmo closed yet? :ssst:
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I don't hear much any more from leftists about closing Gitmo. Why is that?

Hey leftists, why are you folks so quiet now about closing Gitmo? Are you afraid of what we on the right will call you? Hypocrites.
 
In my personal opinion, what has happened, is that people are now finding out .. including Obama himself that he is a great campaigner, and a lousy administrator. He is finding out that promising something, is much easier then delivering. The sad part, is he has not learned enough... because we are still getting much of the same in the way of promises.

To the poster that keeps using congress as an excuse for not closing Gitmo, in a way I'm hoping you really believe this. Cause if you do, then you will stop blaming Bush for the Iraqi war. After all the congressional vote was *77-23 to authorize President Bush to attack Iraq* and the house vote was 296 to 133. Seeing Gitmo wasn't opened until 2002, it's a safe assumption to say that Gitmo would not have be in the news if congress had voted not to the war in Iraq, therefore Gitmo is a result of the congressional vote to go to war with Iraq, and not President Bush. Or at least distribute the blame equally, but I really don't expect to see that happen.... -chuckles- enough of sarcasm

The one that seems to make the most sense in this thread is tlmorg02, and should be applauded for his common sense thinking.

Some times there are things called a necessary evil, we may not like or agree with them, but they serve a purpose for a problem that seems at the time to have no answers. This is the case with Gitmo, it served the purpose at the time, as did some of the actions taken there. In hindsight, we can look at that problem and see better ways of handling it, the luxury of hindsight isn't available to those making the decisions at the time.

As to the war on terrorism, and like it or not, it is a war, because of the nature of this war, people are going to have to accept that to win it, we are going to have to do somethings that are distasteful, things that are borderline wrong and things that some will say we shouldn't do. As Americans we better get use to the fact that this is going to get dirty.

To those self righteous believers that think we can fight this war and win it cleanly, I would like to talk to you after a terrorist bomb takes one of your loved ones, and see if you still feel the same way. Because the vast majority of friends and family of the 9/11 victims don't take terrorism as lightly as you.
 
Boo Radley said:
Both rule law and civilan control won't allow that.
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Of course it will. I trust the military to act in out best interests just as I trust the government to do the same. If they don't then the necessary steps will be taken, and there are laws on the books designed to limit the power of both. You seem to think that trusting government and military is the same as giving them carte blanche to do whatever they choose, that it's not necessary to follow laws and procedures. I think its time you actually read the posts you're responding to and to quit leaping to erroneous conclusions.
It goes to the claim you made that we don't oppose or openly oppose these things in the past. We did. Didn't have instant media, and like today, we often spoke in oter medium, like in novels. But, people did nenounce wrong acts even then.
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Sure they denounced wrong acts and we still do. But if we judge these acts by reading fiction then we should respond by writing fiction. Dealing with facts, as in a court of law, is a far better way to go.
You said we were fighting Islam. That is fighting a religion.
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Actually I never said any such thing. In fact you have the gall to claim I said we are fighting "Islam" and in the very same post you quote me as saying "When we are at war, and indeed we are at war with Islamist terrorists, we are better off to trust our military than not". Can you really not make the distinction between the Islam and Islamists??


None of those countries attacked us either. And those terrorist who attacked us came form SA, not Iraq. Not Afghanistan. And they can be found in nearly every country in the world. Again, no country attacked us. And you miss the point with the KKK and the skin heads. If I were to say that we need to stop Christains, or fight Christians, because of acts by people in the KKK or skinheads, then I would eb doing what you're doing with Islam.
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Let me get this straight, ok?

Do you feel that because Islamic terrorists can come from all over the world we should just sit back, like ducks in a row, and let them attack? And if any of them are caught in an airport line-up they should then be tried in a civilian court? Please, no more nonsense about the KKK or Christians, all right? These meanderings serve no purpose.

Al queads is Islam? See you're doing it again, making the two the same thing. They are not.
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My error. It is al-taqiyya that allows Muslims to lie, and I'm sure you understand that terrorists are also encouraged to lie, and make false claims about torture, etc.

Second point. Deception is taught to many, including those in the US military. How to resist torture is also taught, also to the US military. This is understood all around. It is not the religion, Islam, that teaches deception. As well read as you are, you still need to make the proper distinctions.
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See above.
terrorism is nothing more than a tactic.
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A tactic for what? To what purpose? Have you thought this through?
 
friday:

The Obama administration is preparing to increase the use of military commissions to prosecute Guantánamo detainees, an acknowledgment that the prison in Cuba remains open for business after Congress imposed steep new impediments to closing the facility.

Defense Secretary Robert M. Gates is expected to soon lift an order blocking the initiation of new cases against detainees, which he imposed on the day of President Obama’s inauguration. That would clear the way for tribunal officials, for the first time under the Obama administration, to initiate new charges against detainees.
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http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/20/us/20trials.html

how do you spell s-u-r-r-e-n-d-e-r?
 
Grant said:
Of course it will. I trust the military to act in out best interests just as I trust the government to do the same. If they don't then the necessary steps will be taken, and there are laws on the books designed to limit the power of both. You seem to think that trusting government and military is the same as giving them carte blanche to do whatever they choose, that it's not necessary to follow laws and procedures. I think its time you actually read the posts you're responding to and to quit leaping to erroneous conclusions.
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Foolish to hold such trust. human beings are always capable fo doing wrong, so oversight is always needed. Watch dogs. If you don'tn have a healthy distrust, you don't question, and you get something liek Iraq and Gitmo.

Sure they denounced wrong acts and we still do. But if we judge these acts by reading fiction then we should respond by writing fiction. Dealing with facts, as in a court of law, is a far better way to go.
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Fiction (art), to paraphrase a famous quote, is the lie that reveals the truth. And while courts are a valid place, something can be wrong, even illegal, even if it never goes to court. It can be evil as well.

Actually I never said any such thing. In fact you have the gall to claim I said we are fighting "Islam" and in the very same post you quote me as saying "When we are at war, and indeed we are at war with Islamist terrorists, we are better off to trust our military than not". Can you really not make the distinction between the Islam and Islamists??
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Yes, you did. And I made a distinction as well. Terrorism is a tactic. Islam is a religion. Islam is nto the only people suing the tactic. Not even the only people using the tactic against us.



Let me get this straight, ok?

Do you feel that because Islamic terrorists can come from all over the world we should just sit back, like ducks in a row, and let them attack? And if any of them are caught in an airport line-up they should then be tried in a civilian court? Please, no more nonsense about the KKK or Christians, all right? These meanderings serve no purpose.
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No, that just the stupid leaps your side makes all too often. I believe we should actually go after the groups, the actual terrorist, and not countries, and not nation building. but, yes, they should be tried as criminals. You kill people, you're a criminal. This is not Afghanistan versus the US. If it was, it would be over now. A government can surrender. An idea does not. Because Bush lack the ability to understand the problem facing us, he was reckless and brought about a very costly mistake.

My error. It is al-taqiyya that allows Muslims to lie, and I'm sure you understand that terrorists are also encouraged to lie, and make false claims about torture, etc.
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As are all trained personal. The MOB is taught to lie. So are US soliders. Again, there's no meaningful point here on your part.

A tactic for what? To what purpose? Have you thought this through?
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Have you thougth it through? Terrorism is neither new nor limited to one group of people. It's been used throughout history, and continues to this day. All that changes is who is using it where. It's silly to fight a tactic. Fight a specific group of people. An duse the most effective force. Our enemy is small, fast, easily hidden. This is not something the military can best fight. You need something smaller, more moble, more secretive. We migth even learn from the Brittish who quit the open bold war with Ireland and worked behind the scenes, making deals, getting intel and quietly ended their conflict. They stopped elevating the status of the enemy, and with a more understated effort actually accomplished the goal they wanted.
 
Boo Radley said:
As are all trained personal. The MOB is taught to lie. So are US soliders. Again, there's no meaningful point here on your part. .
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Please to explain this.

where in your training were you taught to lie? I'd love to hear this.
 
ReverendHellh0und said:
Please to explain this.

where in your training were you taught to lie? I'd love to hear this.
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When tortured. That's what SERE trainign is all about. How to handle torture and prepare yourself for it. And would include misdirection.
 
Boo Radley said:
When tortured. That's what SERE trainign is all about. How to handle torture and prepare yourself for it. And would include misdirection.
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really? When and where were you through SERE? me, over at Fairchild, AFB... How to handle capture, is but one module of the entire course.
 
ReverendHellh0und said:
really? When and where were you through SERE? me, over at Fairchild, AFB... How to handle capture, is but one module of the entire course.
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It is one Module.

An overview:

Resistance and escapeTraining on how to survive and resist the enemy in the event of capture is largely based on the experiences of past US and allied prisoners of war. Most of the aspects of this course are secret. Several official websites, however, give a general overview.

Survival, Evasion, Resistance and Escape - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
Boo Radley said:
It is one Module.

An overview:

Resistance and escapeTraining on how to survive and resist the enemy in the event of capture is largely based on the experiences of past US and allied prisoners of war. Most of the aspects of this course are secret. Several official websites, however, give a general overview.

Survival, Evasion, Resistance and Escape - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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So it is not as you said "what it's all about".


Are you really linking me to a wikipedia sight about SERE school? :lamo


I won't get into it too much, but outright lying is not encouraged at SERE, but distraction, redirection, and slightly changed utterances of information is taught. It would be hard to describe to someone who hasn't been through it.
 
ReverendHellh0und said:
So it is not as you said "what it's all about".


Are you really linking me to a wikipedia sight about SERE school? :lamo


I won't get into it too much, but outright lying is not encouraged at SERE, but distraction, redirection, and slightly changed utterances of information is taught. It would be hard to describe to someone who hasn't been through it.
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You guys need to understand as an overview, Wiki is fine. It only gives an overview.

But yes, resistence does match what I said. Part of resisting can be deception. As I recall, my training involved being told that choosing to lie was a personal decision, one that might involve consequences later. But, this is discussed. Part of training.
 
Boo Radley said:
This is not Afghanistan versus the US. If it was (sic), it would be over now. A government can surrender. An idea does not. Because Bush lack (sic) the ability to understand the problem facing us, he was reckless and brought about a very costly mistake.
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obama ESCALATED afghanistan, aesop
 
Boo Radley said:
You guys need to understand as an overview, Wiki is fine. It only gives an overview.
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You realize though that showing me Wiki on the topic, would be like me showing you a wiki on jogging, right?


But yes, resistence does match what I said. Part of resisting can be deception. As I recall, my training involved being told that choosing to lie was a personal decision, one that might involve consequences later. But, this is discussed. Part of training.
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So in your experience, they never taught you to lie. Thanks for the concession.
 
ReverendHellh0und said:
You realize though that showing me Wiki on the topic, would be like me showing you a wiki on jogging, right?




So in your experience, they never taught you to lie. Thanks for the concession.
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You realize, that teaching it as an option is as much part of training as those recieve that we capture. It for them is a choice as well.

Your comment about Wiki makes no logical sense.
 
oh, so THAT'S why obama ESCALATED afghanistan

LOL!

he must lack CORE VALUES

either way, he's a LOSER

because if a democrat president can't deliver kerry, boxer, feinstein, webb, mccaskill, inouye, rockefeller, wyden, mikulski, menendez, carper, sanders...
 
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The Prof said:
oh, so THAT'S why obama ESCALATED afghanistan

LOL!

he must lack CORE VALUES

either way, he's a LOSER

because if a democrat president can't deliver kerry, boxer, feinstein, webb, mccaskill, inouye, rockefeller, wyden, mikulski, menendez, carper, sanders...
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I know you don't think much about what is really being argued, but Obama esculated in Afghanistan because he rightly knows that is the more important battlefield and where the effort always should have been at. So while I disagree with his esculation for reasons I doubt you would consider, he is correct to have the focus there. Iraq shold never have been a battlefield for us.
 
afghanistan is a TACTIC?

LOL!
 
Boo Radley said:
You realize, that teaching it as an option is as much part of training as those recieve that we capture. It for them is a choice as well.
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Nonsene. How many times did they tell you this? who was it? Can you show me the FM manual on technuiqes on lying? If not, I accept your consession.

Your comment about Wiki makes no logical sense.
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sure it does. I've been through SERE, offering up wiki to tell me about something you nor wiki, have been through? well it's just silly.
 
ReverendHellh0und said:
Nonsene. How many times did they tell you this? who was it? Can you show me the FM manual on technuiqes on lying? If not, I accept your consession.
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How many times? I wasn't taking notes. Can't look back and see, but enough for me to remember it.



sure it does. I've been through SERE, offering up wiki to tell me about something you nor wiki, have been through? well it's just silly.
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Then no overview source would work for you. However, I'm not just speaking to you. :coffeepap
 
is there an overview source demonstrating that afghanistan is a TACTIC?

LOL!
 
Boo Radley said:
How many times? I wasn't taking notes. Can't look back and see, but enough for me to remember it.
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I accept your concession. you claim you heard it. Then if it's official army policy, I'm sure you would be able to dig up the FM manual.



Then no overview source would work for you. However, I'm not just speaking to you. :coffeepap
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Not when it comes to things I know intimately, and you responded directly to me, hero.
 
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