• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

US Treasury asks Congress to lift debt ceiling

Redress said:
Not exactly, no. It would force the government to stop spending.
Click to expand...

You're wrong, it would force them to repriortize spending. It's just like running a business. If a companies revenues go down, they have to decide which things that they're not going to spend money one. This is the same thing.
 
MrVicchio said:
No, you implied that cutting taxes was bad. And since you focused on the fantasy benefits of spending borrowed money...
Click to expand...

No I did not imply that either. I implied that cutting taxes raises deficits. It does. The question is whether that cut in revenue is offset, which so far it is not. I also implied that crying to lower revenue and then complaining about how big the deficit is is silly.
 
apdst said:
You're wrong, it would force them to repriortize spending. It's just like running a business. If a companies revenues go down, they have to decide which things that they're not going to spend money one. This is the same thing.
Click to expand...

The government is not a business.
 
Lord Tammerlain said:
Armed people raising money?

They perhaps wont go down to the local bank with an M1A1 asking for withdrawls will they?
Click to expand...

Naw, usually when the government needs cash that they don't wanna report to congress they just sell drugs. Luckily enough 90% of the world's opium comes from a country our military occupies.
 
Redress said:
The government is not a business.
Click to expand...

Not technically, but it should be run like a business. The failure to run the government like a business is the biggest problem, IMO.
 
Redress said:
Not exactly, no. It would force the government to stop spending.
Click to expand...

If the Gov't can't afford to pay what's doing without borrowing... don't you see that as a BAD thing?
 
apdst said:
Yes, it would. It would force Congress to priortize spending.
Click to expand...

It would force government to show us their true colors, it would essentially cut spending in half. Us serfs would finally get to see what is most important to them. And just a guess, the most immediate danger to the government wouldn't be cave dwellers anymore, it would people getting testy in the bread lines.
 
MrVicchio said:
US Treasury asks Congress to lift debt ceiling

Just say NO Congress. You were given the House to stop this train wreck. Get to it!
Click to expand...

Not that simple... Congress needs more money to create more needed jobs (infrastructure, dams, etc.) to keep priming the motor, without it, the country would lose all the advances it has made. It's about more charity. It's about doing something NOW, not just hoping the economy will recover by itself. Never has never will.

Maybe, just maybe congress will finally do what the people voted for them to do, not play political gotcha ya ya ya games like little children.

ricksfolly
 
ricksfolly said:
Not that simple... Congress needs more money to create more needed jobs (infrastructure, dams, etc.) to keep priming the motor, without it, the country would lose all the advances it has made. It's about more charity. It's about doing something NOW, not just hoping the economy will recover by itself. Never has never will.

Maybe, just maybe congress will finally do what the people voted for them to do, not play political gotcha ya ya ya games like little children.

ricksfolly
Click to expand...

Congress passed over a trillion dollars worth of job creation bills. How did that work out for us?

The government can't create jobs.
 
Let's get reality out of the way: The debt ceiling will be raised. End of story.

Federal Government revenue as a percentage of GDP is still at historic lows. In a normally functioning economy, revenue as a % of GDP > 18%, more specifically it should be 19.5%.

Government Revenue as a % of GDP as a function of time
Chapter4.08.1.01.png


Cutting spending to reflect revenue during this stage of the recovery will definitely send us crashing back to not just a recession, but a full out depression. Given that the deficit is around 12.5% of GDP, cutting that to zero will reduce GDP roughly by that amount. The empirical relationship of GDP and unemployment states that this will push the U-3 unemployment average just over 15%, and the U-6 measurement (that partisans have taken a liking to) just north of 23%.

Is this the egg you want to crack?
 
Goldenboy219 said:
Let's get reality out of the way: The debt ceiling will be raised. End of story.

Federal Government revenue as a percentage of GDP is still at historic lows. In a normally functioning economy, revenue as a % of GDP > 18%, more specifically it should be 19.5%.

Government Revenue as a % of GDP as a function of time
Chapter4.08.1.01.png


Cutting spending to reflect revenue during this stage of the recovery will definitely send us crashing back to not just a recession, but a full out depression. Given that the deficit is around 12.5% of GDP, cutting that to zero will reduce GDP roughly by that amount. The empirical relationship of GDP and unemployment states that this will push the U-3 unemployment average just over 15%, and the U-6 measurement (that partisans have taken a liking to) just north of 23%.

Is this the egg you want to crack?
Click to expand...

Government spending isn't going to fix the economy. We've spent more than a trillion dollars over the past two years and the economy is still in the ****ter and unemployment is still going up. The notion tht the government can fix the economy is fantasy, not reality.
 
apdst said:
Congress passed over a trillion dollars worth of job creation bills. How did that work out for us?

The government can't create jobs.
Click to expand...

a lot more than a trillion-- tarp was $700+ billion (to save the system from eminent collapse), stimulus was another $770 billion, the tax bill at the end of 2010 was $950 billion. even all that pales in comparison to the amount of money the fed has injected into the system. it's balance sheet has grown by just shy of $1.5 trillion since the beginning of the crisis. it has purchased over $3 trillion in corporate bonds on top of that.

to make matters worse all the inflation is starting to hit. it'll surely hit the resource based economies hardest first such as china, india, brazil. but all their products are bought by us and the prices are starting to go up. and even worse than that, what has happened to wages? they've actually gone down, this is why people cry about deflation. so everything is more expensive except the value of yours and my time. do you really think another trillion in government debt will help or hurt? it only makes the eventual fall from a higher elevation. the building is burning, and instead of jumping out a third story window and survive with some broken knees we're climbing up to run from the fire. anyone that thinks the fire will go out before we have to jump off the roof is a fool.
 
The congress should tell the US treasury to straighten out their fiscal agenda. Stop all stimulus spending, excessive government waste, and force the government to live within its means. The debt ceiling should be lowered if it changes at all.
 
apdst said:
Government spending isn't going to fix the economy. We've spent more than a trillion dollars over the past two years and the economy is still in the ****ter and unemployment is still going up. The notion tht the government can fix the economy is fantasy, not reality.
Click to expand...

If deficit spending did not happen, we would be in a much worse position. Consider the composition of national product accounts, more specifically government spending's role in gross domestic product.

Your post in no way refuted a single thing that i had previously posted.
 
Last edited:
Goldenboy219 said:
If deficit spending did not happen, we would be in a much worse position. Consider the composition of national product accounts, more specifically government spending's role in gross domestic product.
Click to expand...

riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight!!! yeah, ok! :lamo

images
 
Last edited:
Goldenboy219 said:
Quality response!
Click to expand...

I responding to the post. :lamo

Ok, deficit spending is good? Nancy just got done saying that it's bad and she was all about ending the practice. You really need to stay up to date on your talking points.
 
apdst said:
I responding to the post. :lamo

Ok, deficit spending is good? Nancy just got done saying that it's bad and she was all about ending the practice. You really need to stay up to date on your talking points.
Click to expand...

No need to create a strawman in this particular argument, even fallacies cannot save you from the ridiculusness of your comment. Without increased (because we were already in the red) deficit spending during the contraction, total GDP would additionally have fallen by that amount (about a trillion bucks). My statements are confirmed by national product accounts. You are merely speaking out of ignorance.
 
apdst said:
Government spending isn't going to fix the economy. We've spent more than a trillion dollars over the past two years and the economy is still in the ****ter and unemployment is still going up. The notion tht the government can fix the economy is fantasy, not reality.
Click to expand...

I am not sure you are following what he is saying. GDP is ~14.1 trillion(World Bank, World Development Indicators - Google public data.) Federal spending is 6.7 trillion(Government Spending in United States: Federal State Local 2011 - Charts Tables History). What do you think the effect of removing spending equal to 45 % of GDP would be?

If you just look at deficit, it is at ~1.7 trillion according to wiki. Do you think reducing spending by just that 12 % of GDP will hurt the economy? If the economy crashes, what do you think that will do to the deficit?
 
Goldenboy219 said:
No need to create a strawman in this particular argument, even fallacies cannot save you from the ridiculusness of your comment. Without increased (because we were already in the red) deficit spending during the contraction, total GDP would additionally have fallen by that amount (about a trillion bucks). My statements are confirmed by national product accounts. You are merely speaking out of ignorance.
Click to expand...

You're wrong. Sorry. Deficit spending didn't save the economy.
 
Redress said:
I am not sure you are following what he is saying. GDP is ~14.1 trillion(World Bank, World Development Indicators - Google public data.) Federal spending is 6.7 trillion(Government Spending in United States: Federal State Local 2011 - Charts Tables History). What do you think the effect of removing spending equal to 45 % of GDP would be?

If you just look at deficit, it is at ~1.7 trillion according to wiki. Do you think reducing spending by just that 12 % of GDP will hurt the economy? If the economy crashes, what do you think that will do to the deficit?
Click to expand...

Oh, I'm following what he's saying. He's claiming that government spending saved the economy and it's bull****.
 
apdst said:
Oh, I'm following what he's saying. He's claiming that government spending saved the economy and it's bull****.
Click to expand...

You have offered nothing to back up that claim. He has. You have not refuted with anything other than your opinion.
 
apdst said:
Oh, I'm following what he's saying. He's claiming that government spending saved the economy and it's bull****.
Click to expand...

If you had the means to substantiate your comment, you would have done so. You are attempting to substitute fact with opinion. My argument stands, feel free to use credible evidence to dismiss it.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom