Vick says he would like a pet dog; anger follows

Hancock said:

Exactly! So therefore, perhaps YOU can explain what KELZIE intended...

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I was saying you can't learn empathy. I could never learn to be empathetic to spiders (hence, the analogy). In order for people to think I was "reformed" I might say I've learned my lesson, but really they'll always be gross, nasty, creepy crawlies.

Hancock said:

Exactly! So therefore, perhaps YOU can explain what KELZIE intended...

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Yes, I believe I can. In a way, Kelzie is comparing herself to Vick. She's saying she could talk a good game about all of a sudden loving spiders but when it comes to a time nobody's watching, she'd still squish them. Same thing with Vick and the dogs.

BTW, Kelzie, I'm trust you'll correct me if I'm wrong.

X Factor said:

Yes, I believe I can. In a way, Kelzie is comparing herself to Vick. She's saying she could talk a good game about all of a sudden loving spiders but when it comes to a time nobody's watching, she'd still squish them. Same thing with Vick and the dogs.

BTW, Kelzie, I'm trust you'll correct me if I'm wrong.

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Not even a little. I was beginning to get worried about my analogy! :2wave:

Kelzie said:

Also doesn't make sense. First off, MMA fighters are rational adults, capable of making their own decisions. Second Vick wasn't a MMA fighter. To make the analogy work at all, he'd have to be some sort of gladiator slave driver, which is getting a little ridiculous. Those dogs didn't chose to fight, Vick and his ilk forced them to fight to the death for their own sick amusement. Not even a little comparable to MMA.

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I think that saying MMA fighters are rational adults is going just a bit too far. Who among any of us really deserves that high an honor. People do contradictory things almost constantly.

To the contrary! The analogy is perfect!

No Vick isn't an MMA fighter, but he is a football player. Football is predicated upon the presumption of violence. The MMA events are also based upon the same crux of ferocity. That very same thirst that get quenched when see football and the MMA, is the same type of violent thirst that gets quenched when people like Vick, see dog fights.

MMA fighters would not become MMA fighters if they were independently wealthy. Poverty, streetlife, and the ghetto, serves as the ultimate impetus to fight. It's just that they're good at it and they prefer to use it exclusively as the singular tool to pry themselves out of poverty. Most feel as though they didn't have much of a choice. The fighters receive praise from their promoters, fans, and friends when they win. When they lose, promoters begin to turn away, their fan base erodes, and friends and relatives tend to stay in touch as long as you have money. Once your money is gone and you've pretty much faded as a fighter, then you lose your friends and your relatives ridicule you for foolish spending and faded skills. Many ex-fighters fallen on their luck must be reminded that suicide is NOT an option.

Dogs who lose either get severely injured or killed.

Yeah! I can definitely see the analogy there, for sure!

X Factor said:

What you call "the only difference" makes all the difference. Humans always have a say in how they live, animals do not.

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So rent has to get paid. Children need formula, diapers, and food. All must be kept warm with adquate heat and clothing. You come from humble beginnings. Your parents barely got you through adolescence. In fact, you had to work part-time throughout high school just to buy your own clothing. In the current economy, you find it impossible to find employment. However, you can fight! You apply with the UFC. you show up for try outs and pass. You're in! Now you can feed your family and pay your rent on time.

Yep!

I'd say that makes not just "the only difference", THAT "makes ALL the difference"!

Well, this thread sure has been on a roller coaster.

But I think the old saying of "let sleeping dogs lie" is appropriate and I am out of this one.......

Hancock said:

I think that saying MMA fighters are rational adults is going just a bit too far. Who among any of us really deserves that high an honor. People do contradictory things almost constantly.

To the contrary! The analogy is perfect!

No Vick isn't an MMA fighter, but he is a football player. Football is predicated upon the presumption of violence. The MMA events are also based upon the same crux of ferocity. That very same thirst that get quenched when see football and the MMA, is the same type of violent thirst that gets quenched when people like Vick, see dog fights.

MMA fighters would not become MMA fighters if they were independently wealthy. Poverty, streetlife, and the ghetto, serves as the ultimate impetus to fight. It's just that they're good at it and they prefer to use it exclusively as the singular tool to pry themselves out of poverty. Most feel as though they didn't have much of a choice. The fighters receive praise from their promoters, fans, and friends when they win. When they lose, promoters begin to turn away, their fan base erodes, and friends and relatives tend to stay in touch as long as you have money. Once your money is gone and you've pretty much faded as a fighter, then you lose your friends and your relatives ridicule you for foolish spending and faded skills. Many ex-fighters fallen on their luck must be reminded that suicide is NOT an option.

Dogs who lose either get severely injured or killed.

Yeah! I can definitely see the analogy there, for sure!

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But if he must quench his thirst for violence, and he did so in the past by seeing dog fights, then why should he get a dog then?
Also, just re-stating what Kelzie said, MMA fighters fight because they want too, and dogs are killed for sport. Would you want to under the care of someone who tried to kill you?

Hancock said:

So rent has to get paid. Children need formula, diapers, and food. All must be kept warm with adquate heat and clothing. You come from humble beginnings. Your parents barely got you through adolescence. In fact, you had to work part-time throughout high school just to buy your own clothing. In the current economy, you find it impossible to find employment. However, you can fight! You apply with the UFC. you show up for try outs and pass. You're in! Now you can feed your family and pay your rent on time.

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I would agree that there are routes that you must do in order to survive, but these dogs were put onto a route where they couldn't survive. Therefore, from that logic, those animals still had no control over their lives because the end result was death. Humans have say in how they live because they could be an engineer or a chemist if they wanted to, or a garbage collector or a banker, etc.

Hancock said:

So rent has to get paid. Children need formula, diapers, and food. All must be kept warm with adquate heat and clothing. You come from humble beginnings. Your parents barely got you through adolescence. In fact, you had to work part-time throughout high school just to buy your own clothing. In the current economy, you find it impossible to find employment. However, you can fight! You apply with the UFC. you show up for try outs and pass. You're in! Now you can feed your family and pay your rent on time.

Yep!

I'd say that makes not just "the only difference", THAT "makes ALL the difference"!

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What's clear is that you have no idea what you're talking about regarding the UFC. Sure, some may have low income backgrounds, but that's by no means all of them. Many were wrestlers in college and enter the UFC for the love of competition. Look at Brock Lesnar, now, I can't stand the guy, but he had a successful career as a pro wrestler, but made the jump to the UFC because he wanted to fight and test his ability for real. UFC athletes are rarely just street brawlers any more. In fact, someone with such a limited skill set would not make it in the UFC. Today's MMA fighters are extremely well trained, well rounded and well conditioned athletes and most do it for the love of the sport, not because anyone forced them to be there. Comparing MMA to dog or **** fighting is an apples to feces comparison.

X Factor said:

What's clear is that you have no idea what you're talking about regarding the UFC. Sure, some may have low income backgrounds, but that's by no means all of them. Many were wrestlers in college and enter the UFC for the love of competition. Look at Brock Lesnar, now, I can't stand the guy, but he had a successful career as a pro wrestler, but made the jump to the UFC because he wanted to fight and test his ability for real. UFC athletes are rarely just street brawlers any more. In fact, someone with such a limited skill set would not make it in the UFC. Today's MMA fighters are extremely well trained, well rounded and well conditioned athletes and most do it for the love of the sport, not because anyone forced them to be there. Comparing MMA to dog or **** fighting is an apples to feces comparison.

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I didn't say ALL! However Many Do!!!

Most MMA fighters just like most boxers DON"T want to fight because they ENJOY IT!

Where you get that from?

tsla said:

But if he must quench his thirst for violence, and he did so in the past by seeing dog fights, then why should he get a dog then?
Also, just re-stating what Kelzie said, MMA fighters fight because they want too, and dogs are killed for sport. Would you want to under the care of someone who tried to kill you?

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Don't be so easily fooled. Most MMA fighters don't fight because they want to! Most boxers don't box because they want to! They fight because there's a purse invovled. THEY FIGHT FOR MONEY!!!!

Hancock said:

I didn't say ALL, I said "Many"...

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Then your comparison of MMA to dog fighting is a complete fail and we get back to my original point, MMA fighters choose this for themselves, dogs do not.

tsla said:

I would agree that there are routes that you must do in order to survive, but these dogs were put onto a route where they couldn't survive. Therefore, from that logic, those animals still had no control over their lives because the end result was death. Humans have say in how they live because they could be an engineer or a chemist if they wanted to, or a garbage collector or a banker, etc.

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Where did you get the idea that you can be whatever you want. Some people are afforded the opportunity to be whatever they want.

College education is becoming more and more less affordable..

Ikari said:

No, it's determined mostly by nature. Slaves were humans, all humans have the same base set of abilities. While we had slaves, we eventually came to see that human is human and that all humans should be allowed to practice the same base set of rights. Dogs and the like are not humans. Not human is property. Slaves have the ability to rise up and make themselves not slaves. Animals do not.

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Though I agree that human life is more important then animal life, I highly disagree in saying they are property. They are living beings with the ability to think. They are not inanimate objects and should not be treated as such.

X Factor said:

Then your comparison of MMA to dog fighting is a complete fail and we get back to my original point, MMA fighters choose this for themselves, dogs do not.

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Most fighters choose the MMA because its their only way out! Not because they relish the idea of cleaning someone's clock. They're at least rational enough to know that they run the risk of getting their own clocks cleaned too!

Trust me, it's the MONEY!

You guys have to realize that just like the dogs didn't choose to fight. Most MMA fighters would much prefer to do something else, other than run the risk of suffering permanent brain damage.

Hancock said:

Most fighters choose the MMA because its their only way out! Not because they relish the idea of cleaning someone's clock. They're at least rational enough to know that they run the risk of getting their own clocks cleaned too!

Trust me, it's the MONEY!

You guys have to realize that just like the dogs didn't choose to fight. Most MMA fighters would much prefer to do something else, other than run the risk of suffering permanent brain damage.

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Do you even have the first clue what you are talking about? There are literally MILLIONS of people that engage in amatuer level MMA schools, training, and local events. The do it for the fun of it (twisted as that may be). You might want to look in a local phone book and go to a few of the training gyms. You will find men AND women training and fighting because they LIKE it.

Edit: Major universities have for DECADES sponsored amateur boxing matches, amateurs train and fight and spar with no plan of ever going beyond the amateur ranks. We do it because we LIKE it. Not that we like to pummel people to oblivion but we like the sport, the exercise, the challenge, and the comraderie.

Hancock said:

I think that saying MMA fighters are rational adults is going just a bit too far. Who among any of us really deserves that high an honor. People do contradictory things almost constantly.

To the contrary! The analogy is perfect!

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How on earth is it going too far? They are over the age of 18 and of sound mind. They are able to consent getting into a ring and getting the **** kicked out of them. If you're really going to question that, your logic is so far out there that there's not much point in debating.

Hancock said:

No Vick isn't an MMA fighter, but he is a football player. Football is predicated upon the presumption of violence. The MMA events are also based upon the same crux of ferocity. That very same thirst that get quenched when see football and the MMA, is the same type of violent thirst that gets quenched when people like Vick, see dog fights.

Click to expand...

And Vick, like the MMA fighters, also gets to choose if he will play football or not. However, not only are there laws that make what Vick did ILLEGAL, but in a basic appeal to humanity, it is wrong to force those who have no choice to fight to the death.

Hancock said:

MMA fighters would not become MMA fighters if they were independently wealthy. Poverty, streetlife, and the ghetto, serves as the ultimate impetus to fight. It's just that they're good at it and they prefer to use it exclusively as the singular tool to pry themselves out of poverty. Most feel as though they didn't have much of a choice. The fighters receive praise from their promoters, fans, and friends when they win. When they lose, promoters begin to turn away, their fan base erodes, and friends and relatives tend to stay in touch as long as you have money. Once your money is gone and you've pretty much faded as a fighter, then you lose your friends and your relatives ridicule you for foolish spending and faded skills. Many ex-fighters fallen on their luck must be reminded that suicide is NOT an option.

Dogs who lose either get severely injured or killed.

Yeah! I can definitely see the analogy there, for sure!

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You're being ridiculous. They have a choice. They can flip burgers for all I care. Everyone else in America manages to find a job, they can too. However, dogs do not have a choice. They fight or they are killed. Are you really saying those are the choice available to MMA fighters?

Originally Posted by Ikari
No, it's determined mostly by nature. Slaves were humans, all humans have the same base set of abilities. While we had slaves, we eventually came to see that human is human and that all humans should be allowed to practice the same base set of rights. Dogs and the like are not humans. Not human is property. Slaves have the ability to rise up and make themselves not slaves. Animals do not.

WeAreReborn said:

Though I agree that human life is more important then animal life, I highly disagree in saying they are property. They are living beings with the ability to think. They are not inanimate objects and should not be treated as such.

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Animals also have the ability to rise up and make themselves not slaves... Even if somebody tries to argue that people have an inalienable right to self protection/bear arms, it is a lot harder to take a bears arms off a bear. lol.. If angered animals can F us up, if they really want... and you have to have a really powerful gun to kill big game. You can't kill a bear or tiger it with a little pistol. Don't be arrogant and think it's only our world only and they serve us.. Animals and other life play a significant role in our ecosystem, and we are interdependent on them and each other.. If certain life starts dying out or others take over the ecosystem, then we will be feeling much more like slaves trying to adapt and feed everybody..

SheWolf said:

Animals also have the ability to rise up and make themselves not slaves... Even if somebody tries to argue that people have an inalienable right to self protection/bear arms, it is a lot harder to take a bears arms off a bear. lol.. If angered animals can F us up, if they really want... and you have to have a really powerful gun to kill big game. You can't kill a bear or tiger it with a little pistol. Don't be arrogant and think it's only our world only and they serve us.. Animals and other life play a significant role in our ecosystem, and we are interdependent on them and each other.. If certain life starts dying out or others take over the ecosystem, then we will be feeling much more like slaves trying to adapt and feed everybody..

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Man was able to hunt Mammoths before guns. Guns make it easier; but there's also tactics and understanding of animals and their habits. Animals are not on the same level as humans. We may feel this or that for certain creatures; but in the end we do treat them like property. And they are a type of property in all legal sense.

WeAreReborn said:

Though I agree that human life is more important then animal life, I highly disagree in saying they are property. They are living beings with the ability to think. They are not inanimate objects and should not be treated as such.

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You may not agree that animals are nothing more than personal property, but that's what the law says.

I don't agree with it either, but that's the way it is...all 50 states.

Ikari said:

Man was able to hunt Mammoths before guns. Guns make it easier; but there's also tactics and understanding of animals and their habits. Animals are not on the same level as humans. We may feel this or that for certain creatures; but in the end we do treat them like property. And they are a type of property in all legal sense.

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I wrote a post for you a few pages back

VanceMack said:

Do you even have the first clue what you are talking about? There are literally MILLIONS of people that engage in amatuer level MMA schools, training, and local events. The do it for the fun of it (twisted as that may be). You might want to look in a local phone book and go to a few of the training gyms. You will find men AND women training and fighting because they LIKE it.

Edit: Major universities have for DECADES sponsored amateur boxing matches, amateurs train and fight and spar with no plan of ever going beyond the amateur ranks. We do it because we LIKE it. Not that we like to pummel people to oblivion but we like the sport, the exercise, the challenge, and the comraderie.

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I practiced Tae Kwon Do for eight years. I was in the US coast guard for six years. I very well know the difference between merely taking classes and being TRAINED versus putting your butt on the line for slaughter. In both boxing and the MMA, one lucky punch or kick, respectively can ruin you for the rest of your life.
It's funny to me when you mentioned comraderie. Sometimes sparring partners end up actually fighting one another in the ring. They are regarded as "being professional" when they are able to put their frienship aside, so they can bash one anothers heads in all for the purpose of entertainment and money. That's what I call real friendship!

Like I said before, human beings never cease to amaze me!

PS.

We seem to have an unquenchable thirst for violence, aggression, bloodshed, and ego-adoration...

Hancock said:

Most fighters choose the MMA because its their only way out! Not because they relish the idea of cleaning someone's clock. They're at least rational enough to know that they run the risk of getting their own clocks cleaned too!

Trust me, it's the MONEY!

You guys have to realize that just like the dogs didn't choose to fight. Most MMA fighters would much prefer to do something else, other than run the risk of suffering permanent brain damage.

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Some fight for the money. Some for the glory, some for the challenge, some because they like violence. Many for a combination of the above.

I used to be a prizefighter, and before that an amateur. Mostly I did it because I liked the challenge. Later it was a combination of the challenge and also that I could use the money. I gave it up one day after I decided the lost brain cells were not worth it, but I still train and teach the skillsets.

Saying it is only the money is inaccurate.

Kelzie said:

How on earth is it going too far? They are over the age of 18 and of sound mind. They are able to consent getting into a ring and getting the **** kicked out of them. If you're really going to question that, your logic is so far out there that there's not much point in debating.



And Vick, like the MMA fighters, also gets to choose if he will play football or not. However, not only are there laws that make what Vick did ILLEGAL, but in a basic appeal to humanity, it is wrong to force those who have no choice to fight to the death.



You're being ridiculous. They have a choice. They can flip burgers for all I care. Everyone else in America manages to find a job, they can too. However, dogs do not have a choice. They fight or they are killed. Are you really saying those are the choice available to MMA fighters?

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I have no idea what your last question is asking!

First of all, you of all people should already know that just because you're 18 years old, that does NOT make you sound of mind. Besides, when you really examine the human species, who if any of us are really "sound of mind"... Human beings live by the unrelenting theme of veritable contradiction.

So when an MMA fighter gets into the ring, do you really think that he has completely and rationally thought things out? Alternatively, perhaps he's just tossing the dice in hopes that he will get lucky. Based upon his self-believed skills and his possible prior successful triumphant fight record, he takes an educated guess and gambles that he will win. Most MMA fighters in particular, if given money NOT to fight, would prefer NOT to fight. It's the money that they're after, not the glory! It most certainly is not the glory, because the risk of getting your clock cleaned is NOT worth all the glory in the world...

Let's not forget, people eat animals! In some countries people eat dogs, cats, and chickens. I would much prefer that a dog, a cat, or perhaps a chicken lose its life, as opposed to another human being becoming injured. When that MMA fighter gets into the ring, has he really thought the situation out completely? Has he really been that rational human being? I think NOT!

He has not considered the possibility of suffering trauma to the brain. Enough trauma will render anyone brain dead. Minor trauma over extended periods of time can cause permanent damage, as well... ie Muhammed Ali.

I personally would order the killing of millions of dogs, if I could save the life, limb, or quality of life for just one human being.

PS.

Where did you get the idea that anybody can find a job?

People are now lining up by the hundreds just to work for Walmart and Burger King!

Goshin said:

Some fight for the money. Some for the glory, some for the challenge, some because they like violence. Many for a combination of the above.

I used to be a prizefighter, and before that an amateur. Mostly I did it because I liked the challenge. Later it was a combination of the challenge and also that I could use the money. I gave it up one day after I decided the lost brain cells were not worth it, but I still train and teach the skillsets.

Saying it is only the money is inaccurate.

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So are you saying that most of these guys couldn't be bribed NOT to fight?

Dude, please!

It's entirely about the money!