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Sudan group in legal challenge to independence vote [edited]

Laila

Laila

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Lawyers for a Sudanese campaign group launched a legal bid on Sunday to halt Sudan's referendum on southern independence, accusing organisers of mishandling the process, a move which could derail the January 9 vote.

A group calling itself the Society Organisation Network instructed lawyers to take the case to court, accusing the referendum commission of placing SPLM members in senior posts and saying southerners in the north had been prevented from registering for the vote.
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Sudan group in legal challenge to independence vote | Top News | Reuters

Good.
The referendum should be prevented. The colonial borders of Africa cannot be changed nor should the Pandora's box be opened
 
I think they should be allowed to vote on their independence. The Sudanese are suffering enough, hopefully this will help bring peace if people are allowed to vote on border changes.
 
Albert Di Salvo said:
There will be endless war.
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Oh absolutely.

Sudan will eventually collapse back to fighting
There will be wars over oil, the divisions of land/oil/Nile water.
If South Sudan becomes Independent. Under no means will this be over :shrug:
 
Laila said:
Oh absolutely.

Sudan will eventually collapse back to fighting
There will be wars over oil, the divisions of land/oil/Nile water.
If South Sudan becomes Independent. Under no means will this be over :shrug:
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However it will no longer be an eternal thing. The leadership of Sudan is evil. What if they can establish a government better than the Sudanese one? (Which is likely to happen).
 
Deuce said:
Why shouldn't Africans get to determine African borders?
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No, thank you.

Africa is not ready for disturbing this and the repercussions of a "NEW" African country.
That is why the AU's Charter is against the changing of colonial borders. No new country is allowed to created.
 
digsbe said:
However it will no longer be an eternal thing. The leadership of Sudan is evil. What if they can establish a government better than the Sudanese one? (Which is likely to happen).
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May happen.
But peace will not occur.

No new African countries that deviate from the colonial borders should occur .... for a VERY long time.
 
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Laila said:
May happen.
But peace will not occur.

No new African countries that deviate from the colonial borders should occur .... for a VERY long time.
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Why do you feel this way?
 
digsbe said:
Why do you feel this way?
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The repercussions and unintended consequences
What will probably happen is areas of Africa who believe they should be independent will now fight for it ... This time against their own Governments.

South Sudan's independence will create a precedent and probably a domino effect at worst.
The DRC could split up to as much as four provinces and the worse example is Nigeria.

Now Sudan will be split into 'Christian/Muslim' Sudan.
What is the future for Nigeria? It will ofc eventually go down the 'Christian/Muslim' Nigeria because as we all know the religious groups have alot of fighting
And war will happen in Nigeria if that attempts to occur over the placement of oil and natural resources which is such a lucrative business. Just two examples of many in Africa
Zanzibar Isles will want to leave Tanzania and Tanzania would resist.

The colonial borders shouldn't be changed for a LONG time (Maybe 200 years, give or take a few years depending on Africa's progress).
 
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Kandahar said:
If you want another war, you are correct.
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War will happen anyway over border disputes and natural resources. This referendum will solve nothing.

:shrug:
 
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Laila said:
The repercussions and unintended consequences
What will probably happen is areas of Africa who believe they should be independent will now fight for it ... This time against their own Governments.
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Why would this establish a precedent for all of Africa? Just because they have dark skin doesn't mean that they all think alike, any moreso than Belgian separatism will result in the fracture of the United States. And you completely miss the fact that parts of Africa that want independence are ALREADY fighting for it and/or trying to get it through political means.

Furthermore, it's hardly unprecedented for an African country to fracture. Eritrea broke away from Ethiopia, Namibia broke away from South Africa, Zimbabwe and Zambia separated, and Somalia is at least three separate de facto countries.

Laila said:
South Sudan's independence will create a precedent and probably a domino effect at worst.
The DRC could split up to as much as four provinces and the worse example is Nigeria.

Now Sudan will be split into 'Christian/Muslim' Sudan.
What is the future for Nigeria? It will ofc eventually go down the 'Christian/Muslim' Nigeria because as we all know the religious groups have alot of fighting
And war will happen in Nigeria if that attempts to occur over the placement of oil and natural resources which is such a lucrative business. Just two examples of many in Africa
Zanzibar Isles will want to leave Tanzania and Tanzania would resist.

The colonial borders shouldn't be changed for a LONG time (Maybe 200 years, give or take a few years depending on Africa's progress).
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Why would any of those countries care what happens in the Sudan? Nigeria, for example, is 2,000 miles away from the Sudan. The idea that internal Sudanese separatist politics would have any impact on Nigerian separatism is laughable.
 
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Kandahar said:
Why would this establish a precedent for all of Africa? Just because they have dark skin doesn't mean that they all think alike, any moreso than Belgian separatism will result in the fracture of the United States. And you completely miss the fact that parts of Africa that want independence are ALREADY fighting for it and/or trying to get it through political means.

Furthermore, it's hardly unprecedented for an African country to fracture. Eritrea broke away from Ethiopia, Namibia broke away from South Africa, Zimbabwe and Zambia separated, and Somalia is at least three separate de facto countries.

Why would any of those countries care what happens in the Sudan? Nigeria, for example, is 2,000 miles away from the Sudan. The idea that internal Sudanese separatist politics would have any impact on Nigerian separatism is laughable.
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Eitrea was once a colony of Italy. That was why it was allowed to succeed.
If Eritrea was always part of Ethiopia, no way would it ever have been allowed Independence.
Somalia will not split into three countries. Will not be allowed.

Namibia was under the control of Germany as a European power.
Both Zambia and Zimbabwe were also colonies and were under powers and hence drawn into the map originally.
No *NEW* African country has been created in a long time. By long, I mean since the colonial period.

And ofc it matters. It sets a precedent for the AU.
Those areas which are fighting for separation stood no chance because of the AU Charter forbidding deviation from the colonial borders but because of this bloody referedum if it passes, will make it even more likely.
 
Laila said:
Eitrea was once a colony of Italy. That was why it was allowed to succeed.
If Eritrea was always part of Ethiopia, no way would it ever have been allowed Independence.
Somalia will not split into three countries. Will not be allowed.

Namibia was under the control of Germany as a European power.
Both Zambia and Zimbabwe were also colonies and were under powers and hence drawn into the map originally.
No *NEW* African country has been created in a long time. By long, I mean since the colonial period.

And ofc it matters. It sets a precedent for the AU.
Those areas which are fighting for separation stood no chance because of the AU Charter forbidding deviation from the colonial borders but because of this bloody referedum if it passes, will make it even more likely.
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The African Union is not the European Union. Regardless of what the AU Charter says, none of its member states pay any attention to it anyway. The idea that Nigerian separatists are going to have some affinity for the Juba government just because they're located on the same continent and under the same (incredibly weak) supranational organization is absurd. They may as well point to the independence of Timor-Leste or Kosovo.
 
Kandahar said:
The African Union is not the European Union. Regardless of what the AU Charter says, none of its member states pay any attention to it anyway. The idea that Nigerian separatists are going to have some affinity for the Juba government just because they're located on the same continent and under the same (incredibly weak) supranational organization is absurd. They may as well point to the independence of Timor-Leste or Kosovo.
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Who said anything about affinity? It does spell trouble.

Sudan gives many Africans who want to split from their country a precedent.
A country which was never a country to begin with splitting up and going its own way for no good reason anyway. Excellent.
I foresee no problems.

As I said, no NEW African country has been created and for a good reason.
All successions that has occurred since the colonial period were countries who was once colonies leaving and going back to their borders.
Frankly Africa should gets it act together and forbid Sudan from splitting imo
 
Laila said:
Sudan group in legal challenge to independence vote | Top News | Reuters

Good.
The referendum should be prevented. The colonial borders of Africa cannot be changed nor should the Pandora's box be opened
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Yeah, God forbid that the Darfur region gain it's independence and, possibly end the genocide. The Arabs don't want to allow the inferior Black Africans to have their independence, because of the racist attitudes that exist in the North.

But, I'm sure you were hoping that no one actually knew the difference between, "Southern Sudan", and, "Darfur".
 
I get what Laila is saying, if you give one group it's own country, that gives a precedent for every tribal or ethnic identity to want it's own country, and that'd probably lead to a war or two, though the problem in the first place was how the powers divided up Africa anyway. :shrug: It's a confusing situation.
 
It's Africa's problem. We need to stop poking our noses in where it doesn't belong.
 
Laila said:
Who said anything about affinity? It does spell trouble.

Sudan gives many Africans who want to split from their country a precedent.
A country which was never a country to begin with splitting up and going its own way for no good reason anyway. Excellent.
I foresee no problems.
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Why does Sudanese separatism give Nigerian rebels a precedent, moreso than Kosovar separatism does? Obviously you must think that living on the same continent as another culture 2,000 miles away must give them some sort of affinity. Otherwise you wouldn't refer to the precedence that it will have on "Africa" and "Africans" as though the entire continent was a monolithic culture.

Laila said:
As I said, no NEW African country has been created and for a good reason.
All successions that has occurred since the colonial period were countries who was once colonies leaving and going back to their borders.
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What makes you think that this is any more legitimate than Africans drawing their own new borders? White people can do it better?

Laila said:
Frankly Africa should gets it act together and forbid Sudan from splitting imo
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Congratulations, you just solved all of Africa's geopolitical problems. The continent (as a whole since, of course, it is a single entity with common ambitions) just needs to "get its act together." I wonder why no one ever thought of that before. :roll:
 
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Kandahar said:
Why does Sudanese separatism give Nigerian rebels a precedent, moreso than Kosovar separatism does? Obviously you must think that living on the same continent as another culture 2,000 miles away must give them some sort of affinity. Otherwise you wouldn't refer to the precedence that it will have on "Africa" and "Africans" as though the entire continent was a monolithic culture.
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I've run across this a few times.

I think it may have something to do with how the US is set up. We're alot of states within a single country. So many people think of it as, well..one whole country...the states are just there to seperate different areas and make things easier to tell where people are talking about and for legislations. I think it's hard for people to seperate this from places like Africa. Which is a whole bunch of countries on one continent vs a bunch of states within one country.
 
Kandahar said:
Why does Sudanese separatism give Nigerian rebels a precedent, moreso than Kosovar separatism does? Obviously you must think that living on the same continent as another culture 2,000 miles away must give them some sort of affinity. Otherwise you wouldn't refer to the precedence that it will have on "Africa" and "Africans" as though the entire continent was a monolithic culture.



What makes you think that this is any more legitimate than Africans drawing their own new borders? White people can do it better?



Congratulations, you just solved all of Africa's geopolitical problems. The continent (as a whole since, of course, it is a single entity with common ambitions) just needs to "get its act together." I wonder why no one ever thought of that before. :roll:
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Kal'Stang said:
I've run across this a few times.

I think it may have something to do with how the US is set up. We're alot of states within a single country. So many people think of it as, well..one whole country...the states are just there to seperate different areas and make things easier to tell where people are talking about and for legislations. I think it's hard for people to seperate this from places like Africa. Which is a whole bunch of countries on one continent vs a bunch of states within one country.
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Given Laila's background I strongly doubt that she believes that Africa is one monolithic culture.

What she states is a strong possibility. Also the precendence of Southern Sudan (note not Darfur) separating does provide a stronger example for African ethnicities to seek separate countries then does Kosovo, due to proximity, more so then culture. What happens to other African countries and ethnicities is of more importance to more Africans then what happens to a European country. Just as what would happen in Burma or Thailand would be of more importance to those in the region then what happens in Latin America. The fact that it occured closer to "home" is significant
 
Laila said:
-- The referendum should be prevented. The colonial borders of Africa cannot be changed nor should the Pandora's box be opened
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I totally disagree, much of the internecine strife is historical and involves the arbitrary borders put into place by the colonials. Many countries in Africa are on the brink of internal collapse - many because of the mineral wealth that different tribes fight over because they are lumped together as "one nation" and thus the owners of particular land feel robbed when others move in and sell rights of use to other nations.

Laila said:
The repercussions and unintended consequences
What will probably happen is areas of Africa who believe they should be independent will now fight for it ... This time against their own Governments.
Click to expand...

This is already happening - especially in Southern Sudan, the Christian and Animist elements of Sudan pay a heavy price for being lumped into a country with Arab and black muslims of the North. There is enough local coherence religiously and politically to make a separate Southern Sudan work.

Laila said:
South Sudan's independence will create a precedent and probably a domino effect at worst.
The DRC could split up to as much as four provinces and the worse example is Nigeria.

Now Sudan will be split into 'Christian/Muslim' Sudan.
What is the future for Nigeria? It will ofc eventually go down the 'Christian/Muslim' Nigeria because as we all know the religious groups have alot of fighting
And war will happen in Nigeria if that attempts to occur over the placement of oil and natural resources which is such a lucrative business. --
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I used to think that before actually living in Nigeria, there's very little appetite for separate Christian / Muslim or independence from Nigeria - even among the Igbo. Everyone I met and talked to agreed they would never go back to the desire for separation - they seemed to have looked into a pit of hell and communally agreed not to do that again. The only real desire for separation comes from the delta peoples whose oil wealth is going elsewhere.

The AU is pretty much defunct, very few leaders have any real moral or legitimate authority to preach to each other about tribalism / slaughter and how to behave. It is time for many of the groups who are tied by colonial borders to have their independence - I strongly believe over time there will be less bloodshed than the current situation.
 
Lord Tammerlain said:
Given Laila's background I strongly doubt that she believes that Africa is one monolithic culture.
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I don't really know her background so can only go by what I see. And no offense to anyone around here but most of the time I don't really even look at names when I respond to someone. I just respond to whats said, no matter who says it.
 
Lord Tammerlain said:
Given Laila's background I strongly doubt that she believes that Africa is one monolithic culture.

What she states is a strong possibility. Also the precendence of Southern Sudan (note not Darfur) separating does provide a stronger example for African ethnicities to seek separate countries then does Kosovo, due to proximity, more so then culture. What happens to other African countries and ethnicities is of more importance to more Africans then what happens to a European country. Just as what would happen in Burma or Thailand would be of more importance to those in the region then what happens in Latin America. The fact that it occured closer to "home" is significant
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Maybe for the IMMEDIATE neighbors of the country it might be significant. Sudan's internal strife can and has spilled over into Chad, and vice versa. But on a continent-wide scale? Absolutely not. Nigeria is 2,000 miles away from the Sudan, Tanzania is 1,400 miles away, and the DRC (although nominally sharing a small land border) has little in common culturally or politically with South Sudan. I can't imagine why any of them would be the slightest bit affected.

Ultimately I think that these type of arguments boil down to one of two premises: The more charitable explanation is that people believe that, simply because two cultures share a land mass, they must have something in common and look to one another (as opposed to societies elsewhere) for examples. The less charitable is that people believe that, simply because two cultures share a skin color, they must have something in common and look to one another (as opposed to societies elsewhere) for examples.

The idea that this creates a dangerous precedent doesn't make any sense anyway. If Juba separates from Khartoum and it turns out well, then perhaps it SHOULD serve as an example. And if Juba separates from Khartoum and it turns out badly, then other groups will look at it as an example of what NOT to do.

Ultimately I don't see it affecting any other countries at all, except maybe Chad. And Chad has a horrendous government itself.
 
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