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'Don't ask' repeal fails in Senate

Redress said:
I bet you have no evidence you are not in a very small minority.
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Do you have evidence that I am in the small minority?

I bet most our young people these days can handle being hit on by some one of the gender they are not attracted too quite easily. I bet saying "no thank you" is pretty easy, and the more attractive gay men and women frequently have to say it to both genders...and handle it.
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I doubt the US is going to reverse policy based on your betting that everything will just be fine.
 
X Factor said:
Do you have evidence that I am in the small minority?

I doubt the US is going to reverse policy based on your betting that everything will just be fine.
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No, it is more likely that they will do so because they have studies that say that there will most likely be very few problems with repealing DADT and the fact that this is what the people want. (BTW, the American taxpayers paid for that study on what issues might come up when DADT is repealed. I love how so many Republicans are all for wasting that money by continuing to put this off because of their own biases and fears eventhough they asked for the study to be done.)
 
roguenuke said:
No, it is more likely that they will do so because they have studies that say that there will most likely be very few problems with repealing DADT and the fact that this is what the people want. (BTW, the American taxpayers paid for that study on what issues might come up when DADT is repealed. I love how so many Republicans are all for wasting that money by continuing to put this off because of their own biases and fears eventhough they asked for the study to be done.)
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By the people who "want" this, do you mean military or civilian?
 
Navy Pride said:
A win for the good guys......Looks like a repeal of DADT is dead..........

Politics, Political News - POLITICO.com

'DON'T ASK' STAYS: The Senate has failed to vote in favor of repealing "don't ask, don't tell." Democrats got 57 votes in favor of repealing it, three short of the 60 required.
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Wait, wait....so when Clinton established DADT, that was a win for gays...but when DADT is difended, that's a win for the anti-gays? wtf kind of backwards bull**** game are you spinnin?
 
Redress said:
I bet you have no evidence you are not in a very small minority. I bet most our young people these days can handle being hit on by some one of the gender they are not attracted too quite easily. I bet saying "no thank you" is pretty easy, and the more attractive gay men and women frequently have to say it to both genders...and handle it.
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I'm pretty sure if you read what MSgt has to say on this topic he'll reflect IckFactor's argument...all be it with more insight, examples and sources.
 
X Factor said:
By the people who "want" this, do you mean military or civilian?
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Civilians.

Civilians want it, elect leaders who are put in charge of the militery, so the military has to change so that the civilian leadership retains a voting block.
 
Redress said:
So the problem is not gays, the problem is with you.
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Look, Redress, I get how untenable my feelings are about possibly getting hit on by a gay guy, to you and others. I'm not even really trying to defend it. I'm just trying to put myself in the position of our 18 to 22 year old troops and look at this honestly. I think gays are probably as competent soldiers as straights and I would never condone physically assaulting a service member just for being gay, however we have to deal in what's real here and I do think it's interesting that nobody here is willing to assure me that instances of same sex propositioning (if you will) will not increase if DADT is repealed. Instead, you all are essentially telling me it's ok if it does. Do you all really not see the potential for trouble?
 
X Factor said:
By the people who "want" this, do you mean military or civilian?
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The majority of civilians, who are the ones who elect Congressman to make (or remove) rules in the military. The head of the military also wants this, along with probably most of those military members who have actually worked with openly gay servicemembers. Many of those in the military could care less if it is repealed. There are some branches in which many of the members believe that there will be problems. However, most of those have admitted to never actually have worked with a gay person or even someone they believed to be gay. Which means that they really are just basing their opinions on fear of the unknown and/or what they have been told might happen.
 
Jerry said:
I'm pretty sure if you read what MSgt has to say on this topic he'll reflect IckFactor's argument...all be it with more insight, examples and sources.
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Actually, we have discussed it, and we roughly agree. Some small problems, nothing unsolvable or particularly major.
 
X Factor said:
Look, Redress, I get how untenable my feelings are about possibly getting hit on by a gay guy, to you and others. I'm not even really trying to defend it. I'm just trying to put myself in the position of our 18 to 22 year old troops and look at this honestly. I think gays are probably as competent soldiers as straights and I would never condone physically assaulting a service member just for being gay, however we have to deal in what's real here and I do think it's interesting that nobody here is willing to assure me that instances of same sex propositioning (if you will) will not increase if DADT is repealed. Instead, you all are essentially telling me it's ok if it does. Do you all really not see the potential for trouble?
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You just don't seem to be able to accept that there are people who are giving you their first hand experience with those 18-22 year old troops who have been able to work just fine with gays. Some straight soldiers/marines/sailors have even been hit on by gay men and been able to turn them down with no violence, not even making a big deal about it (my husband laughs about his experiences).

There will most likely be some issues. However, these will most likely not be huge issues. It is very important that the leadership is willing to step up and make sure that all military rules are enforced quickly and fairly. This is probably the most important thing that needs to happen when DADT is repealed, and it is very doable now.
 
X Factor said:
Do you have evidence that I am in the small minority?
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You made the initial claim. It's on you to support it. On my side I have the DoD report and the RAND report.

I doubt the US is going to reverse policy based on your betting that everything will just be fine.
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No, they are going to reverse policy based on mountains of data that they have accumulated.
 
Jerry said:
Civilians.

Civilians want it, elect leaders who are put in charge of the militery, so the military has to change so that the civilian leadership retains a voting block.
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Adm. Mullen is a civilian? The things you learn...
 
X Factor said:
Look, Redress, I get how untenable my feelings are about possibly getting hit on by a gay guy, to you and others. I'm not even really trying to defend it. I'm just trying to put myself in the position of our 18 to 22 year old troops and look at this honestly. I think gays are probably as competent soldiers as straights and I would never condone physically assaulting a service member just for being gay, however we have to deal in what's real here and I do think it's interesting that nobody here is willing to assure me that instances of same sex propositioning (if you will) will not increase if DADT is repealed. Instead, you all are essentially telling me it's ok if it does. Do you all really not see the potential for trouble?
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I think most 18-22 year olds can handle it. There is no evidence they cannot.
 
How exciting. Tomorrow could be the day that DADT is repealed. It'll either be a historic day or a day that rivals Prop 8 as one of the greatest set backs to the gay rights movement.
 
Redress said:
I think most 18-22 year olds can handle it. There is no evidence they cannot.
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Handling it is different than embracing it. I thought I heard where those who actually serve in combat roles oppose repeal most. Why is that do you think?
 
X Factor said:
Handling it is different than embracing it. I thought I heard where those who actually serve in combat roles oppose repeal most. Why is that do you think?
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They are the ones who are instilled the most with how important morale and discipline are to their jobs, but on top of that, they are also the ones "taught" the most about how if gays serve openly (or at all, in some cases) then it will negatively affect morale and discipline. Most have admitted that they have never actually served with an openly gay person or even someone that they believed to be gay. So most are just going with what they were "taught" or believe, even with no actual experience to support this.
 
X Factor said:
Handling it is different than embracing it. I thought I heard where those who actually serve in combat roles oppose repeal most. Why is that do you think?
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They don't have to embrace it. They merely have to handle it.
 
Jerry said:
Mullen is the entire voting public? Wow, the things you learn in deed.
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You said that civilians wanted it. I pointed out just one noncivilian who wants it. Now they are going to get it.
 
Redress said:
You said that civilians wanted it. I pointed out just one noncivilian who wants it. Now they are going to get it.
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Oh, ok, see I thought we were talking about the overall attitude of groups. Not sure I made an absolute statement declaring that no military wanted this, but, **** it, what are we talking about anyway? DADT repealed, awesome, sound national defense policy, imo. I'm disappointed that Gay-Rights© is going to spin this into a civil rights issue, when in fact this has nothing to do with civil rights, but you can't blame a scorpion for stinging you; it is a scorpion, that's what they do.

Like Blacks and women, gays are a resource which IMO the military is harmed by shutting out.

Hey, as long as you're willing to lay down on that grenade to save my ass, I could care less if you spend the rest of your time staring at it...I couldn't blame you, either...damn I'm sexy :cool:
 
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