• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

'Don't ask' repeal fails in Senate

I believe gays in the military will have a detrimental effect. They are incapable of combat.

Gays are in combat now. That doesn't make any sense.

And I have worked with openly gay men and women in the military. Their sexual orientation had absolutely zero effect on our morale, discipline or unit cohesion.
 
People can thank conservative LGBT people for getting it overturned as well, as the Log Cabin Republicans were the plaintiffs in the lawsuit where it was ruled unconstitutional (which Obama is now appealing). The Log Cabin Republicans have done more for gay rights than Obama has thus far.

Yup. The Log Cabin Republicans, GOProud, the Gay Patriot, and a bunch of other folks are doing the Lord's work in changing hearts and wising people up.
 
And your point is? I didn't vote for Obama because he doesn't support marriage equality. I committed absolutely nothing to him. Furthermore, I imagine those members of the LGBT community who did committ to him did so for more than just his stance on gay rights. So other than you attempting to taunt people, I don't see what point you could possibly be making.

I'm not trying to taunt you or any one else. Many LGBT activists are committed single issue voters. It's a common phenomenon in the US. They put money and resources behind Obama that could have been used more profitably in the ongoing transformation of public opinion, or in further litigation. On civil rights, nothing has come from Obama.
 
What about when they want to bring their partners to military functions but can't? Or if they get stationed at a military base and want their partner to move in with them? They are denied rights due to DADT and deserve equality within the military. The military isn't about sexuality or declaring what you find attractive, but homosexual families have their rights denied due to DADT. I think this is unreasonable.
Okay, I'm not discounting your points, but nobody has to join the military, right? Pretty much every gay person who joins knows that keeping this part of themselves under wraps is part of the deal. Many rights civilians have don't apply to military life, (just ask Gen. McChrystal). If DADT truly does positively impact troop morale for the majority of troops, wouldn't that be reason enough to keep it in place?
 
Okay, I'm not discounting your points, but nobody has to join the military, right? Pretty much every gay person who joins knows that keeping this part of themselves under wraps is part of the deal. Many rights civilians have don't apply to military life, (just ask Gen. McChrystal). If DADT truly does positively impact troop morale for the majority of troops, wouldn't that be reason enough to keep it in place?
I think keeping DADT in place is far more likely to NEGATIVELY impact troop morale for the majority of troops.
 
Gays are in combat now. That doesn't make any sense.

And I have worked with openly gay men and women in the military. Their sexual orientation had absolutely zero effect on our morale, discipline or unit cohesion.
Well hell, if gays are already serving "openly", what's the issue?
 
Okay, I'm not discounting your points, but nobody has to join the military, right? Pretty much every gay person who joins knows that keeping this part of themselves under wraps is part of the deal. Many rights civilians have don't apply to military life, (just ask Gen. McChrystal). If DADT truly does positively impact troop morale for the majority of troops, wouldn't that be reason enough to keep it in place?

First off, there is a study that was just released by the Pentagon stating that this won't cause a significant impact on troop morale. Secondly, LGBT soldiers are not being treated the same as their straight counterparts. That is the problem, they are being denied the dignity to start a family. Can't you see how horribly wrong that is?
 
Okay, I'm not discounting your points, but nobody has to join the military, right? Pretty much every gay person who joins knows that keeping this part of themselves under wraps is part of the deal. Many rights civilians have don't apply to military life, (just ask Gen. McChrystal). If DADT truly does positively impact troop morale for the majority of troops, wouldn't that be reason enough to keep it in place?

You have absolutely no proof that DADT has any impact on troop morale. In fact, most of the objections are based on fears and personal biases.

The vast majority of those who have actually worked and/or lived with other servicemembers that they knew were gay, are completely for repealing DADT, even in the Marines and Army.
 
Well hell, if gays are already serving "openly", what's the issue?

Because they can't do so in every command. That is the issue. And even in those commands that "allow" them to be opened, it would only take a change of command to force them back into the closet.
 
First off, there is a study that was just released by the Pentagon stating that this won't cause a significant impact on troop morale. Secondly, LGBT soldiers are not being treated the same as their straight counterparts. That is the problem, they are being denied the dignity to start a family. Can't you see how horribly wrong that is?
I worry about hedge words like "significant". Is that a concession that it will impact troop morale in some way (even if it's determined by someone to be insignificant)? Right or wrong, the rules in the military are not the same as for us in the civilian world.
 
Last edited:
First off, there is a study that was just released by the Pentagon stating that this won't cause a significant impact on troop morale. Secondly, LGBT soldiers are not being treated the same as their straight counterparts. That is the problem, they are being denied the dignity to start a family. Can't you see how horribly wrong that is?

I don't put much into Pentagon studies about LGBT issues. And if it's that important to start a family, they should or could leave the military and do whatever they want. But, while in the military, DADT stays, which is fine by me. I didn't want to know then and don't want to know now - that's they're own business. Why is it that so many people want to make someone's sexual proclivity other people's business? I just don't get it.
 
I don't put much into Pentagon studies about LGBT issues. And if it's that important to start a family, they should or could leave the military and do whatever they want. But, while in the military, DADT stays, which is fine by me. I didn't want to know then and don't want to know now - that's they're own business. Why is it that so many people want to make someone's sexual proclivity other people's business? I just don't get it.

Straight soldiers/sailors/marines are allowed and even encouraged to do many things, including getting married, bringing their loved ones to command events and ensuring that their loved ones are kept informed of certain command movements/activities, that gays are not allowed to do. These are things that every military member should be allowed to do because these are things that help to relieve some stress and worry from all servicemembers.

DADT needs to go away. No one joined the military to be comfortable. If someone doesn't like serving alongside openly gay servicemembers who are doing their job, then maybe they should be the one to get out.
 
You have absolutely no proof that DADT has any impact on troop morale. In fact, most of the objections are based on fears and personal biases.
Okay, still it would affect morale right? Even if you reject the reasons for their objections as being "bad" or unreasonable, that's not the same as saying there's no impact on morale.

The vast majority of those who have actually worked and/or lived with other servicemembers that they knew were gay, are completely for repealing DADT, even in the Marines and Army.
Well, if gays are forced to serve in silence, if you will, how many people in the military would this actually be. Not too many, right?
 
Okay, I'm not discounting your points, but nobody has to join the military, right? Pretty much every gay person who joins knows that keeping this part of themselves under wraps is part of the deal. Many rights civilians have don't apply to military life, (just ask Gen. McChrystal). If DADT truly does positively impact troop morale for the majority of troops, wouldn't that be reason enough to keep it in place?

Does that mean we should discriminate against Black soldiers? After all, they'd know what they'd be getting into when they signed up. Why can't they just soldier it out?

I don't get it, you're so worried about troop morale for homophobic soldiers, all while forcing gay soldiers to stay in the closet or face discharge which I bet does wonders for their morale and effectiveness.

Soldiers are expected to suck it up if that improves combat effectiveness. You'd have a point if the evidence showed that repealing DADT would seriously hamper troop effectiveness. The only problem is that almost all of the evidence says that repeal would have little effect on troop cohesion. All I've seen in support of DADT are some poorly done surveys, flimsy what-ifs, and complete disregard for history and foreign military policy. Even if we completely ignore the whole discrimination/civil rights angle, there still is not much if anything on DADT's side. Just look at history. I guarantee you that opposition to racial integration in the military was greater than it is with gays now. Yet they still went along with it. Were there a few hiccups, yes, but did it seriously hamper troop effectiveness, no. Our allies, the Canadians, the Brits, and the Israelis, all countries with very effective armed forces and soldiers, don't have anti-gay policies.

Some military personnel might not like it, but as you said, liking everything they do is not in the job description. Like you said, they know that they are signing on for a difficult job where their wishes won't always be respected, but one of the things that makes our military so effective is that personnel are expected to do things that they don't like, and far more often than not deal with it.
 
No one joined the military to be comfortable.
Exactly the point I've been making. If there are valid competing interests here, what do we do? Seek compromise, right. That's what DADT is, a compromise. Remember when there was just an outright ban on gays? I do.
 
Okay, still it would affect morale right? Even if you reject the reasons for their objections as being "bad" or unreasonable, that's not the same as saying there's no impact on morale.

Well, if gays are forced to serve in silence, if you will, how many people in the military would this actually be. Not too many, right?

Actually, since most have never actually served with gays, they really don't know how they would react to serving with someone who is openly gay, even if they happen to end up in a unit with a gay person. It is quite likely that there will be no problem with those troops serving with openly gay individuals.

And I believe that even one person being treated unfairly and/or differently is wrong. I knew at least a dozen or more openly gay individuals in my department on the aircraft carrier. Them not being allowed to actually bring their significant other to command functions is an issue. And I'd bet that most units/commands have at least one gay person in them. And it would have to be hard on those guys' morale to have to hide something that their fellow servicemembers are allowed to essentially flaunt.
 
Exactly the point I've been making. If there are valid competing interests here, what do we do? Seek compromise, right. That's what DADT is, a compromise. Remember when there was just an outright ban on gays? I do.

Except there is no valid interest in encouraging intolerance and discrimination. And that what the ban on gays serving openly does.
 
Actually, since most have never actually served with gays, they really don't know how they would react to serving with someone who is openly gay, even if they happen to end up in a unit with a gay person. It is quite likely that there will be no problem with those troops serving with openly gay individuals.

And I believe that even one person being treated unfairly and/or differently is wrong. I knew at least a dozen or more openly gay individuals in my department on the aircraft carrier. Them not being allowed to actually bring their significant other to command functions is an issue. And I'd bet that most units/commands have at least one gay person in them. And it would have to be hard on those guys' morale to have to hide something that their fellow servicemembers are allowed to essentially flaunt.

The result of that big study showed that the soldiers who did serve with gays mostly supported repeal. Those who did not were more likely against it. The real fear was that of the unknown, the gay bogeyman, rather than the living, breathing people in their midst.
 
Does that mean we should discriminate against Black soldiers? After all, they'd know what they'd be getting into when they signed up. Why can't they just soldier it out?

I don't get it, you're so worried about troop morale for homophobic soldiers, all while forcing gay soldiers to stay in the closet or face discharge which I bet does wonders for their morale and effectiveness.

Soldiers are expected to suck it up if that improves combat effectiveness. You'd have a point if the evidence showed that repealing DADT would seriously hamper troop effectiveness. The only problem is that almost all of the evidence says that repeal would have little effect on troop cohesion. All I've seen in support of DADT are some poorly done surveys, flimsy what-ifs, and complete disregard for history and foreign military policy. Even if we completely ignore the whole discrimination/civil rights angle, there still is not much if anything on DADT's side. Just look at history. I guarantee you that opposition to racial integration in the military was greater than it is with gays now. Yet they still went along with it. Were there a few hiccups, yes, but did it seriously hamper troop effectiveness, no. Our allies, the Canadians, the Brits, and the Israelis, all countries with very effective armed forces and soldiers, don't have anti-gay policies.

Some military personnel might not like it, but as you said, liking everything they do is not in the job description. Like you said, they know that they are signing on for a difficult job where their wishes won't always be respected, but one of the things that makes our military so effective is that personnel are expected to do things that they don't like, and far more often than not deal with it.
Well the inconvenient truth (to borrow from AlGore) is that there are many more straight troops than there are gay troops, so what would make the fewer troops have to just "suck it up" (interesting word choice btw).
 
Remember when 51% was a majority and votes actually happened, instead of these lame "intent to filibuster" votes? I mean, 57 of 100 support this. There's a clear majority. But apparently that's not good enough, ever since the anti-equal rights camp decided that every single bill is filibustered by default and these frail old men ensured that they didn't have to actually speak. The whole tactic is the mark of a coward.

If they only needed 50 votes I'm sure the Democrats would lower their support to 49.
 
Well the inconvenient truth (to borrow from AlGore) is that there are many more straight troops than there are gay troops, so what would make the fewer troops have to just "suck it up" (interesting word choice btw).

And many of those straight troops have no problem with gay troops serving openly, especially those who have already served with gay troops that they knew were gay. Therefore, those straight troops who are uncomfortable with gay troops serving openly are in a minority, not the majority. Those uncomfortable with gay troops need to get over it.
 
"good guys"? Listen, I've been pretty nice in other threads to people opposed to this civil rights issue, but this is the single most bigoted post I've ever seen on here. It's pathetic that this is even an issue.

Awww, don't hold it against him. He's probably so happy with the vote that he could hug and kiss each and every one of the 'good guys.'
 
Except there is no valid interest in encouraging intolerance and discrimination. And that what the ban on gays serving openly does.
Yeah, I knew when I used the word "valid" it would illicit a response like this. The thing is, whether troop morale would be affected for "valid" reasons or not is not as important an issue as whether it would be affected at all. The military is different than other jobs. I don't live with my coworkers (much to their relief I'm sure).
 
The result of that big study showed that the soldiers who did serve with gays mostly supported repeal. Those who did not were more likely against it. The real fear was that of the unknown, the gay bogeyman, rather than the living, breathing people in their midst.

Yeah, I know. It wasn't surprising either, from my own personal experiences working with openly gay personnel and knowing others who have served with openly gay troopers.
 
Back
Top Bottom