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'Don't ask' repeal fails in Senate

The Mark said:
It's possible. I think Americans in general are more homophobic than many areas of the world (but by no means all).

I am wondering, though... No one ever compares the US military to, say, Iran’s military in this area…
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For the same reason you don't compare a 1989 Oldsmobile Cutlass to a 2011 Ferrari.

Other than having four tires and a steering wheel, they're not at all comparable on any line of measurement.
 
disneydude said:
Yet....people such as yourself are willing to use the military to impose your views on them despite the fact that not just the majority, but the overwhelming majority of them disagree with your view. Why do you hate the military that much Navy?
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Yeah that is what your surveery says that asks the wrong question but when I talk to guys in the fleet and ask them the right question not one has answered me to this point that they want to repeal DADT and several senior people said they would leave the Navy if DAFT is repealed.........
 
Taylor said:
Of course it is.


No -- no such poll results were found in the UK before they made the transition.
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John M. Shalikashvili - Data Must Rule the Debate on Gays in the Military - washingtonpost.com

In Britain and Canada, polls had indicated that thousands would resign if gays were allowed to serve, but when the bans were lifted, almost no one left. The British Defense Ministry conducted several assessments of the policy change and called it a "solid achievement.
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Navy Pride said:
Yeah that is what your surveery says that asks the wrong question but when I talk to guys in the fleet and ask them the right question not one has answered me to this point that they want to repeal DADT and several senior people said they would leave the Navy if DAFT is repealed.........
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That's a load of crap. Face it Navy....you've flip-flopped on this issue so many times....why don't you just admit that you are never going to support gays in any shape or form whatsoever, rather than trying to hide behind so many covers. First it was, I will support it if the voters support it, then it was I'll support it if the military supports it, nows it..."They asked the wrong questions"..... You ain't foolin anyone here.
 
Erod said:
LOL

And 48.6 percent of all statistics are made up.

How could anyone know this?

LOL
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That is why it is an estimate. I am not sure how they arrived at the number, but it does sound pretty much in the ballpark.
 
Navy Pride said:
Yeah that is what your surveery says that asks the wrong question but when I talk to guys in the fleet and ask them the right question not one has answered me to this point that they want to repeal DADT and several senior people said they would leave the Navy if DAFT is repealed.........
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Let the military speak! Wait, don't let the military speak unless you ask the questions in just the right way to get the answer I want!

This has gotten to be beyond funny.
 
disneydude said:
That's a load of crap. Face it Navy....you've flip-flopped on this issue so many times....why don't you just admit that you are never going to support gays in any shape or form whatsoever, rather than trying to hide behind so many covers. First it was, I will support it if the voters support it, then it was I'll support it if the military supports it, nows it..."They asked the wrong questions"..... You ain't foolin anyone here.
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Look my clueless left wing friend, I forgot more about this issue then you will ever know.........I talk to guys in the fleet all the time..........Anyhow we don't have to worry about it any more because the issue is dead..........Live with ot........
 
Redress said:
Let the military speak! Wait, don't let the military speak unless you ask the questions in just the right way to get the answer I want!

This has gotten to be beyond funny.
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Redress the questions that were posed to the military were like the repeal was a done issue, not whether you are for or against repeal.....
 
Navy Pride said:
Redress the questions that were posed to the military were like the repeal was a done issue, not whether you are for or against repeal.....
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But it IS a done issue...

At some point inside the next 5 years, barring a major change in how things appear to be going, DADT will be repealed.
 
Navy Pride said:
Redress the questions that were posed to the military were like the repeal was a done issue, not whether you are for or against repeal.....
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They where asked the exact relevant question: will it effect readiness. Sorry Navy, republicans voting against this have reached the point of being ludicrous.
 
The Mark said:
But it IS a done issue...

At some point inside the next 5 years, barring a major change in how things appear to be going, DADT will be repealed.
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We shall see my left wing friend.....I doubt if good morals will drop in that short period of time....It took many years for God to destroy Sodom.....
 
Deuce said:
For the same reason you don't compare a 1989 Oldsmobile Cutlass to a 2011 Ferrari.

Other than having four tires and a steering wheel, they're not at all comparable on any line of measurement.
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Well, yeah...

But I'm trying to say that, however "enlightened" the militaries that have no limitations like DADT are supposed to be, there are far worse situations than DADT.
 
Redress said:
They where asked the exact relevant question: will it effect readiness. Sorry Navy, republicans voting against this have reached the point of being ludicrous.
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I saw what was asked and the question of "Do you think DADT should be repealed was not asked.........
 
Navy Pride said:
We shall see my left wing friend.....I doubt if good morals will drop in that short period of time....It took many years for God to destroy Sodom.....
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As you say...We shall see...
 
Navy Pride said:
Look my clueless left wing friend, I forgot more about this issue then you will ever know.........I talk to guys in the fleet all the time..........Anyhow we don't have to worry about it any more because the issue is dead..........Live with ot........
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Really? Because surveys have showed the majority of voters and soldiers wish to repeal it. So the two most important people in terms of this issue wish to repeal it. So you are right it is done with but it is an injustice and shows the blatant discrimination towards homsexuals.
Americans Support Repeal of ?Don?t Ask Don?t Tell?
http://www.advocate.com/News/Daily_News/2010/10/29/Majority_Troops_OK_With_Gays/
 
Navy Pride said:
I saw what was asked and the question of "Do you think DADT should be repealed was not asked.........
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To be fair this is a forum, and forums get off of topic all the time. To be quite honest I think it is better that way because it changes according to the poster's interest..
 
Navy Pride said:
Look my clueless left wing friend, I forgot more about this issue then you will ever know.........I talk to guys in the fleet all the time..........Anyhow we don't have to worry about it any more because the issue is dead..........Live with ot........
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Lets face it. The only reason the Republicans blocked this bill was homophobia. They aren't going to say it, but it is true. 10% of people are gay. Face it. I have quite a few gay friends, and I can tell you, Navy Pride, they would think you are a disgusting human being. There is no logical reason that we shouldn't repeal DADT. We have a huge deficit of translators because of DADT. War Heros have been kicked out of the military for being gay. It is utterly ridiculous that this is still a problem. And you are extremely foolish if you say that the issue is dead. There is a bill being reintroduced as we type. And if the reason is homophobia, let me clue you in. Gay people are NO DIFFERENT FROM YOU OR ME. THEY HAVE NO CONTROL OF THEIR SEXUAL ORIENTATION. It is a civil rights issue. And in 100 years, if the US is still around, students in school are going to be asking, "What the hell was wrong with those guys? Didn't they realize that homosexuality was just like skin color and people had no control over it?" And their teachers response will be, "Yes, some of them did. But some ignorant people chose to ignore the science and rely on a book written 2000 years ago." Get educated
 
qwertyuiop said:
Lets face it. The only reason the Republicans blocked this bill was homophobia. They aren't going to say it, but it is true. 10% of people are gay. Face it. I have quite a few gay friends, and I can tell you, Navy Pride, they would think you are a disgusting human being. There is no logical reason that we shouldn't repeal DADT. We have a huge deficit of translators because of DADT. War Heros have been kicked out of the military for being gay. It is utterly ridiculous that this is still a problem. And you are extremely foolish if you say that the issue is dead. There is a bill being reintroduced as we type. And if the reason is homophobia, let me clue you in. Gay people are NO DIFFERENT FROM YOU OR ME. THEY HAVE NO CONTROL OF THEIR SEXUAL ORIENTATION. It is a civil rights issue. And in 100 years, if the US is still around, students in school are going to be asking, "What the hell was wrong with those guys? Didn't they realize that homosexuality was just like skin color and people had no control over it?" And their teachers response will be, "Yes, some of them did. But some ignorant people chose to ignore the science and rely on a book written 2000 years ago." Get educated
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I've never been entirely convinced of that line of argument.
I think in some cases it is a choice, and in some cases not.

But even if sexual orientation was an entirely voluntary choice, I would still say that DADT should be ended.

It being a choice or not has nothing whatsoever to do with that decision, IMHO.
 
The Mark said:
I've never been entirely convinced of that line of argument.
I think in some cases it is a choice, and in some cases not.

But even if sexual orientation was an entirely voluntary choice, I would still say that DADT should be ended.

It being a choice or not has nothing whatsoever to do with that decision, IMHO.
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US researchers find evidence that homosexuality linked to genetics | World news | guardian.co.uk
That might be helpful to your understanding of the issue.
 
qwertyuiop said:
US researchers find evidence that homosexuality linked to genetics | World news | guardian.co.uk
That might be helpful to your understanding of the issue.
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Like I said, I think some make a choice, and some do not - the specifics never bothered me since I decided that it doesn't really matter to me which is the reason for it.

But interesting, nonetheless.

Edit: For that matter, I think the "It's a choice" mantra is misleading.

Obviously, a gay person could make the choice to cease being gay (at least, in terms of actions). If they were somehow genetically/hormonally/whatever gay, it would be going against their nature - but when has that stopped a determined person?
 
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The Mark said:
Like I said, I think some make a choice, and some do not - the specifics never bothered me since I decided that it doesn't really matter to me which is the reason for it.

But interesting, nonetheless.
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Homosexuals on a large scale are discriminated against in almost every country, if not every. What person would choose to be discriminated against and looked down upon by a large amount of the population? I think there is nothing wrong with homosexuality, even if it is a choice. But lets think rationally here and not disregard science either...
 
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WeAreReborn said:
Homosexuals on a large scale are discriminated against in almost every country, if not every. What person would choose to be discriminated against and looked down upon. I think there is nothing wrong with homosexuality, even if it is a choice. But lets think rationally here and not disregard science either...
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I'm sure some would - there's no accounting for some decisions humans make - we're a crazy people :mrgreen:
 
The Mark said:
Obviously, a gay person could make the choice to cease being gay (at least, in terms of actions). If they were somehow genetically/hormonally/whatever gay, it would be going against their nature - but when has that stopped a determined person?
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But that would make them truly unhappy and is unnatural. That is like a straight man being forced into homosexual acts and relationships. The straight man would be resentful and unhappy. Why can't homosexuals just be themselves and be accepted? If someone is intolerant we should change their opinion not cater to this ignorance and irrationality.
 
WeAreReborn said:
But that would make them truly unhappy and is unnatural. That is like a straight man being forced into homosexual acts and relationships. The straight man would be resentful and unhappy. Why can't homosexuals just be themselves and be accepted? If someone is intolerant we should change their opinion not cater to this ignorance and irrationality.
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Right, that's why I disagree with it.

I'm just pointing out that, while accurate if looked at from JUST the right angle, the "it's a choice" mantra is a total steaming load of BS.

Sure, it's a choice...but if (as seems highly likely) a good percentage of those who are gay are naturally that way, who the hell would want to MAKE that choice?

I suppose, if you believe that god thinks homosexuality is a sin, and you naturally feel homosexual…

But what a ****ed up situation…
 
qwertyuiop said:
Lets face it. The only reason the Republicans blocked this bill was homophobia. They aren't going to say it, but it is true. 10% of people are gay. Face it. I have quite a few gay friends, and I can tell you, Navy Pride, they would think you are a disgusting human being. There is no logical reason that we shouldn't repeal DADT. We have a huge deficit of translators because of DADT. War Heros have been kicked out of the military for being gay. It is utterly ridiculous that this is still a problem. And you are extremely foolish if you say that the issue is dead. There is a bill being reintroduced as we type. And if the reason is homophobia, let me clue you in. Gay people are NO DIFFERENT FROM YOU OR ME. THEY HAVE NO CONTROL OF THEIR SEXUAL ORIENTATION. It is a civil rights issue. And in 100 years, if the US is still around, students in school are going to be asking, "What the hell was wrong with those guys? Didn't they realize that homosexuality was just like skin color and people had no control over it?" And their teachers response will be, "Yes, some of them did. But some ignorant people chose to ignore the science and rely on a book written 2000 years ago." Get educated
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You lefties never get tired of playing the homophote, bigot or race card.........
 
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