Hackers Target WikiLeaks 'Enemies': Mastercard, Twitter, Paypal, Even FoxNews(edited)

Catz Part Deux · Dec 9, 2010

Re: Hackers Target WikiLeaks 'Enemies': Mastercard, Twitter, Paypal, Even FoxNews(edi

Summerwind said:
So do you think it is okay that the US government interfered with Wikileaks who've been charged with nothing at this time, trying to shut them down, even when they moved the site out of US jurisdiction?

I don't believe there is a good justification for using cyber attacks to take down the wikileaks site, although there are some vigilante hackers who've claimed to be behind the DDoS attacks, so it's not clear that the U.S. government was involved.

However, using that as a justification to create mass DDoS attacks against businesses isn't appropriate. We have the rule of law in this country, allowing vigilanteism undermines that basic premise of our society.

(I find it humorous that I was just explaining the concept of "rule of law" to my son last night because he is studying it in civics...I'm feeling some deja vu here).

Summerwind · Dec 9, 2010

Re: Hackers Target WikiLeaks 'Enemies': Mastercard, Twitter, Paypal, Even FoxNews(edi

Catz Part Deux said:
I don't believe there is a good justification for using cyber attacks to take down the wikileaks site, although there are some vigilante hackers who've claimed to be behind the DDoS attacks, so it's not clear that the U.S. government was involved.

However, using that as a justification to create mass DDoS attacks against businesses isn't appropriate. We have the rule of law in this country, allowing vigilanteism undermines that basic premise of our society.

(I find it humorous that I was just explaining the concept of "rule of law" to my son last night because he is studying it in civics...I'm feeling some deja vu here).

I agree with the premise, but as you point out, we do like non-violent Robin Hoods, and places like banks, VISA, MC, etc are certainly entities non-grata around here lately. So some extra glee may be in there for many of us twisted folks.

Catz Part Deux · Dec 9, 2010

Re: Hackers Target WikiLeaks 'Enemies': Mastercard, Twitter, Paypal, Even FoxNews(edi

Summerwind said:
I agree with the premise, but as you point out, we do like non-violent Robin Hoods, and places like banks, VISA, MC, etc are certainly entities non-grata around here lately. So some extra glee may be in there for many of us twisted folks.

I'm not going to say i'm not enjoying the spectacle. I do love a circus!

theangryamerican · Dec 9, 2010

Re: Hackers Target WikiLeaks 'Enemies': Mastercard, Twitter, Paypal, Even FoxNews(edi

Summerwind said:
So do you think it is okay that the US government interfered with Wikileaks who've been charged with nothing at this time, trying to shut them down, even when they moved the site out of US jurisdiction?

So you equate Twitter, Mastercard, Amazon, etc. with the US government? We both know I didn't say what you're trying to imply I did.

Redress · Dec 9, 2010

Re: MasterCard site is down, twitter, paypal, foxnews.com is next in hacker attacks.

Catz Part Deux said:
There appear to be reports circulating that Wiki did experience several DDoS attacks prior to the release of the cables, and that subsequent attacks (originating in China) have also occurred.

And nowhere did I deny that they have suffered several DoS attacks. There is zero evidence to tie it to a concerted US effort thought. Believing stuff based on zero evidence is conspiracy theory crap. Do pay attention.

Khayembii Communique · Dec 9, 2010

Re: MasterCard site is down, twitter, paypal, foxnews.com is next in hacker attacks.

Catz said:
However, using that as a justification to create mass DDoS attacks against businesses isn't appropriate. We have the rule of law in this country, allowing vigilanteism undermines that basic premise of our society.

The rule of law is the law of the propertied classes. The vigilantes in the state simply legitimize their actions through it. Law is not an arbiter of whether or not something is good, or should/shouldn't be done, but merely a way of justifying vigilante actions by the state and attacking any resistance by non-state actors. Much in the same way that - as Assange very correctly said - "freedom of the press" only exists in countries where speech has no power, and in that way it isn't truly free. The Wikileaks debacle is merely further evidence that when speech has power and goes directly against state interests, it is vehemently attacked and suppressed on all levels.

Catz Part Deux · Dec 9, 2010

Re: MasterCard site is down, twitter, paypal, foxnews.com is next in hacker attacks.

Khayembii Communique said:
The rule of law is the law of the propertied classes.

The rule of law provides all citizens with an equal opportunity to have their day in court. Are these situations always perfectly executed? Of course not, because human beings are involved. But, we have 200 years of history that suggest that having one's day in court is a pretty damn good system. I see your communist diadactic, but it's unthinking groupspeak.

Law is not an arbiter of whether or not something is good, or should/shouldn't be done, but merely a way of justifying vigilante actions by the state and attacking any resistance by non-state actors.

NO. The law provides an airing and a test of democratic action, and functions as an ongoing method of improving society.

Our bill of rights is the litmus test that every court action must past.

Much in the same way that - as Assange very correctly said - "freedom of the press" only exists in countries where speech has no power, and in that way it isn't truly free.

Actually, freedom of the press doesn't exist in many places, but where it does exist, it is a check on the powers of government as powerful as any other.

The Wikileaks debacle is merely further evidence that when speech has power and goes directly against state interests, it is vehemently attacked and suppressed on all levels.

It is always attacked. However, the U.S. has a history of affirming such speech, in that inevitable day in court (rule of law).

You should read up on what actually happened in regards to the Pentagon Papers. All of what you describe occurred...but, in court, the first amendment rights of the press were upheld, and all charges were dismissed against the leaker.

It is not a clean process, but it works.

Khayembii Communique · Dec 9, 2010

Re: MasterCard site is down, twitter, paypal, foxnews.com is next in hacker attacks.

Catz said:
The rule of law provides all citizens with an equal opportunity to have their day in court. Are these situations always perfectly executed? Of course not, because human beings are involved. But, we have 200 years of history that suggest that having one's day in court is a pretty damn good system. I see your communist diadactic, but it's unthinking groupspeak.

I could probably name 100 events off the top of my head that go against the myth of "equal treatment under the law".

Actually, freedom of the press doesn't exist in many places, but where it does exist, it is a check on the powers of government as powerful as any other.

The press is no longer a watchdog group for the government. Their response to the leaked cables proves this. They've been coming out and saying there is nothing new in the cables, and condemning Wikileaks with the same lines that the government is using. They've refused to publish some of the most damning revelations. The mainstream media (i.e. the corporate press) in the United States is an unofficial arm of the state. It effectively functions as an implicit state press.

Erod · Dec 9, 2010

Re: MasterCard site is down, twitter, paypal, foxnews.com is next in hacker attacks.

Khayembii Communique said:
I could probably name 100 events off the top of my head that go against the myth of "equal treatment under the law".

The press is no longer a watchdog group for the government. Their response to the leaked cables proves this. They've been coming out and saying there is nothing new in the cables, and condemning Wikileaks with the same lines that the government is using. They've refused to publish some of the most damning revelations. The mainstream media (i.e. the corporate press) in the United States is an unofficial arm of the state. It effectively functions as an implicit state press.

Well, Obama did bail out NBC. They owe him. LOL

But seriously, perhaps the press recognized that some of that information was detrimental to security interests of the US. You can't yell "fire" in a crowded theater, and you can't report something that compromises national security. (God help me, I just quoted from Diane Feinstein)

Khayembii Communique · Dec 9, 2010

Re: MasterCard site is down, twitter, paypal, foxnews.com is next in hacker attacks.

As always, Erod, you bring quite a humorous perspective to the thread.

Glenn Greenwald said:
If there's Nothing New in these documents, can Jonathan Capehart (or any other "journalist" claiming this) please point to where The Washington Post previously reported on these facts, all revealed by the WikiLeaks disclosures:

(1) the U.S. military formally adopted a policy of turning a blind eye to systematic, pervasive torture and other abuses by Iraqi forces;

(2) the State Department threatened Germany not to criminally investigate the CIA's kidnapping of one of its citizens who turned out to be completely innocent;

(3) the State Department under Bush and Obama applied continuous pressure on the Spanish Government to suppress investigations of the CIA's torture of its citizens and the 2003 killing of a Spanish photojournalist when the U.S. military fired on the Palestine Hotel in Baghdad (see The Philadelphia Inquirer's Will Bunch today about this: "The day Barack Obama Lied to me");

(4) the British Government privately promised to shield Bush officials from embarrassment as part of its Iraq War "investigation";

(5) there were at least 15,000 people killed in Iraq that were previously uncounted;

(6) "American leaders lied, knowingly, to the American public, to American troops, and to the world" about the Iraq war as it was prosecuted, a conclusion the Post's own former Baghdad Bureau Chief wrote was proven by the WikiLeaks documents;

(7) the U.S.'s own Ambassador concluded that the July, 2009 removal of the Honduran President was illegal -- a coup -- but the State Department did not want to conclude that and thus ignored it until it was too late to matter;

(8) U.S. and British officials colluded to allow the U.S. to keep cluster bombs on British soil even though Britain had signed the treaty banning such weapons, and,

(9) Hillary Clinton's State Department ordered diplomats to collect passwords, emails, and biometric data on U.N. and other foreign officials, almost certainly in violation of the Vienna Treaty of 1961.

That's just a sampling.

From here.

Oh and Catz since you're so interested in the Wikileaks phenomenon you'd probably be interested in the rest of Greenwalds articles on the subject. He's probably my favorite writer covering the leaks. Check this out.

Erod · Dec 9, 2010

Re: MasterCard site is down, twitter, paypal, foxnews.com is next in hacker attacks.

Khayembii Communique said:
As always, Erod, you bring quite a humorous perspective to the thread.

From a lover of Trotsky, I find that comforting.

SirPwn4lot · Dec 9, 2010

Re: MasterCard site is down, twitter, paypal, foxnews.com is next in hacker attacks.

Erod said:
Well, Obama did bail out NBC. They owe him. LOL

But seriously, perhaps the press recognized that some of that information was detrimental to security interests of the US. You can't yell "fire" in a crowded theater, and you can't report something that compromises national security. (God help me, I just quoted from Diane Feinstein)

"The most stringent protection of free speech would not protect a man falsely shouting fire in a theater and causing a panic. [...] The question in every case is whether the words used are used in such circumstances and are of such a nature as to create a clear and present danger that they will bring about the substantive evils that Congress has a right to prevent." - Ruling against the ability to oppose the draft

I don't support the government's "right" to keep secrets from its people, even in the case of "national security".

What if the US government brutally lined up 50,000 innocent Afghans, shot them in the back, and threw them in mass graves. I would consider it my moral duty to spread the word if I came into contact with this information, regardless of whether or not it would prompt terrorist attacks on the US by Muslim extremists in retaliation, or if it were classified or not.

I support an entirely transparent government.

Erod · Dec 9, 2010

Re: MasterCard site is down, twitter, paypal, foxnews.com is next in hacker attacks.

SirPwn4lot said:
"The most stringent protection of free speech would not protect a man falsely shouting fire in a theater and causing a panic. [...] The question in every case is whether the words used are used in such circumstances and are of such a nature as to create a clear and present danger that they will bring about the substantive evils that Congress has a right to prevent." - Ruling against the ability to oppose the draft

I don't support the government's "right" to keep secrets from its people, even in the case of "national security".

What if the US government brutally lined up 50,000 innocent Afghans, shot them in the back, and threw them in mass graves. I would consider it my moral duty to spread the word if I came into contact with this information, regardless of whether or not it would prompt terrorist attacks on the US by Muslim extremists in retaliation, or if it were classified or not.

I support an entirely transparent government.

For something that horrific, I would agree. But for a private comment or suggestion that could strain an already strained relationship, I find it unnecessarily dangerous.

I prefer to believe that we aren't run like a Nazi regime, as your example would be an example of.

Catz Part Deux · Dec 9, 2010

Re: MasterCard site is down, twitter, paypal, foxnews.com is next in hacker attacks.

Khayembii Communique said:
I could probably name 100 events off the top of my head that go against the myth of "equal treatment under the law".

Exceptions don't make the rule. And, as I showed with the Pentagon Papers, even when the law is circumvented at first, there are built in measures to address this problem.

The press is no longer a watchdog group for the government. Their response to the leaked cables proves this. They've been coming out and saying there is nothing new in the cables, and condemning Wikileaks with the same lines that the government is using. They've refused to publish some of the most damning revelations. The mainstream media (i.e. the corporate press) in the United States is an unofficial arm of the state. It effectively functions as an implicit state press.

Which is why the void has been filled by Wikileaks. And, it is causing a shakeup to the status quo that I suspect will result in greater press vigilance in the future. Such gains are never made without pain.

The system works. Not all the time, not without pain, not without error, but it works.

Catz Part Deux · Dec 9, 2010

Re: MasterCard site is down, twitter, paypal, foxnews.com is next in hacker attacks.

Erod said:
For something that horrific, I would agree. But for a private comment or suggestion that could strain an already strained relationship, I find it unnecessarily dangerous.

I prefer to believe that we aren't run like a Nazi regime, as your example would be an example of.

Are you okay, then, with Dyncorp hiring adolescent male prostitutes for Afghani diplomats using tax dollars?

SirPwn4lot · Dec 9, 2010

Re: MasterCard site is down, twitter, paypal, foxnews.com is next in hacker attacks.

Erod said:
For something that horrific, I would agree. But for a private comment or suggestion that could strain an already strained relationship, I find it unnecessarily dangerous.

I prefer to believe that we aren't run like a Nazi regime, as your example would be an example of.

People would instantly realize if the government ran blatant propaganda campaigns, as shown in the Soviet Union. The molding of public opinion in the United States is significantly more sophisticated.

So you agree that it's sometimes one's duty to reveal classified information that's damaging to national security and diplomatic interests. Assuming that you don't support scientists who gave nuclear weapons secrets to the USSR, at which point between these two extremes do you change from allowing it to restricting it, and why?

Khayembii Communique · Dec 9, 2010

Re: Hackers Target WikiLeaks 'Enemies': Mastercard, Twitter, Paypal, Even FoxNews(edi

Catz said:
Exceptions don't make the rule.

Except we're not talking about rules we're talking about the law. In a discussion on how effective the law is as an objective thing I think evidence showing that the law is not objectively applied is the krux of the whole issue.

And, as I showed with the Pentagon Papers, even when the law is circumvented at first, there are built in measures to address this problem.

What do you think the prosecution rate is for a police officer that commits a crime compared to a civilian the commits the same crime?

Which is why the void has been filled by Wikileaks. And, it is causing a shakeup to the status quo that I suspect will result in greater press vigilance in the future. Such gains are never made without pain.

Quite the opposite, actually. The Wikileaks affair is important because it is putting forward the question of the legality of watchdog and independent journalism itself. The press has come out on the side of the government as well, further confirming their inability to independently report on events.

The system works. Not all the time, not without pain, not without error, but it works.

Of course it works, it works for those it is designed to work for...

Catz Part Deux · Dec 9, 2010

Re: Hackers Target WikiLeaks 'Enemies': Mastercard, Twitter, Paypal, Even FoxNews(edi

Khayembii Communique said:
Except we're not talking about rules we're talking about the law. In a discussion on how effective the law is as an objective thing I think evidence showing that the law is not objectively applied is the krux of the whole issue.

I think that if you said objective a few more times, your meaning would be clearer.

100 instances of the law not being applied objectively, in comparison to 60 million instances in which it is...

The krux is what percentage that 100 instances represents. Is it the majority? Or the minority? Were those instances ultimately overturned and justice restored?

You thinking of 100 instances that, for all we know, are exceptions that were later overturned, isn't objectively helpful.

What do you think the prosecution rate is for a police officer that commits a crime compared to a civilian the commits the same crime?

LOLWUT?

Do you have figures on that? I'd like to know what the prosecution rate is, in general, on many crimes. THAT DATA is collected so haphazardly and patchily around the U.S. that collecting it in any cohesive fashion, much less comparing it against police officers charged with the same offense, is impossible. I work with law enforcement data on a daily basis, so I apologize for laughing at your assumptions that such data even exists, but it's a laughable assumption.

However, if you get into a graduate program somewhere, and want to do a doctoral thesis on this topic, call me and I'll help you figure out how to collect it.

Anyway.

The Wikileaks affair is important because it is putting forward the question of the legality of watchdog and independent journalism itself. The press has come out on the side of the government as well, further confirming their inability to independently report on events.

Many members of the press did the same thing in 1971. They ultimately corrected themselves.

Of course it works, it works for those it is designed to work for...

Ah, the proletariat, how persecuted they are.

Laila · Dec 9, 2010

Re: Hackers Target WikiLeaks 'Enemies': Mastercard, Twitter, Paypal, Even FoxNews(edi

I think this sums up this saga:

(If I've gone round the word filter, delete it)

ricksfolly · Dec 9, 2010

Re: MasterCard site is down, twitter, paypal, foxnews.com is next in hacker attacks.

digsbe said:
Assange is a thief and a thug. I truly believe he is a danger to humanity with his abuse of "transparency."

This hoopala isn't about principal or laws. It's about politicians, media, and generals protecting against leaks of their own screw-ups, and the exposure of those we once admired and trusted...

The death of blind idealism.

ricksfolly

Kandahar · Dec 9, 2010

Re: MasterCard site is down, twitter, paypal, foxnews.com is next in hacker attacks.

Those of you who are freaking out over "vigilante hackers" need to calm down. It's 4chan. It's a bunch of kids having some fun, pretending that they're making a difference in the world by sticking it to The Man. They'll lose interest within a couple weeks.

Summerwind · Dec 9, 2010

Re: MasterCard site is down, twitter, paypal, foxnews.com is next in hacker attacks.

Kandahar said:
Those of you who are freaking out over "vigilante hackers" need to calm down. It's 4chan. It's a bunch of kids having some fun, pretending that they're making a difference in the world by sticking it to The Man. They'll lose interest within a couple weeks.

As they have published, they consider these actions similar to sit-ins of previous eras. Not to do harm, just to inconvenience and annoy and bring attention. By "they" I mean Anonymous, not Wikileaks who I read today are trying to distance themselves from Anonymous or 4chan or whatever their tag is today.

Fiddytree · Dec 9, 2010

Re: MasterCard site is down, twitter, paypal, foxnews.com is next in hacker attacks.

Dweebs on the internet concerned about "internet censorship." Nothing more than mentally stunted adults and kids.

ricksfolly · Dec 9, 2010

Re: MasterCard site is down, twitter, paypal, foxnews.com is next in hacker attacks.

SirPwn4lot said:
Assuming that you don't support scientists who gave nuclear weapons secrets to the USSR, at which point do you change from allowing it to restricting it, and why?

Naturally you don't reveal military secrets when at war, but there is no war, no identifiable enemies, and no tangible threats, only possibilities. That means we don't have to ignore the first amendment anymore.

O. W. Holme's theater is empty...

ricksfolly

ricksfolly · Dec 9, 2010

Re: MasterCard site is down, twitter, paypal, foxnews.com is next in hacker attacks.

Fiddytree said:
Dweebs on the internet concerned about "internet censorship." Nothing more than mentally stunted adults and kids.

Yes, but they do believe in the first amendment, a freedom you seem to deny...

ricksfolly

Hackers Target WikiLeaks 'Enemies': Mastercard, Twitter, Paypal, Even FoxNews(edited)

Catz Part Deux

Summerwind

Hot Flash Mama

Catz Part Deux

theangryamerican

Can't stop the signal...

Redress

Liberal Fascist For Life!

Khayembii Communique

Catz Part Deux

Khayembii Communique

Erod

Khayembii Communique

Erod

SirPwn4lot

Erod

Catz Part Deux

Catz Part Deux

SirPwn4lot

Khayembii Communique

Catz Part Deux

Laila

ricksfolly

Kandahar

Enemy Combatant

Summerwind

Hot Flash Mama

Fiddytree

Neocon Elitist

ricksfolly

ricksfolly