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Senate blocks Obama's tax plan

Heavy Duty

Heavy Duty

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The Senate blocked President Obama's and Democratic leaders' tax cut plans Saturday in a foreordained symbolic vote that now sends both sides back to the negotiating table to work out a viable deal.

A bipartisan filibuster, led by unified Republicans and joined by four Democrats and one independent, proved there isn't enough support to back Mr. Obama's preferred option to extend income tax cuts for couples making less than $250,000 and tax increases for those making more than that.

With that vote out of the way, attention turns back to the high-level working group Mr. Obama and congressional leaders set up this week to try to work out a solution. That group met three times already, but Sen. Jon Kyl, Arizona Republican and one of the negotiators, said it was clear to him that Democrats weren't going to negotiate until they had gone through the votes to prove to their political base that raising taxes on the wealthy wasn't viable.
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Senate blocks Obama's tax plan - Washington Times

Some turncoats on the democratic side finally listened to the people whom elected them unlike the house.
 
Heavy Duty said:
Senate blocks Obama's tax plan - Washington Times

Some turncoats on the democratic side finally listened to the people whom elected them unlike the house.
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http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2010/images/11/17/rel16e.pdf

Only a third support the full extension according to this poll. So assuming those third in America which support it also vote with the same frequency as everyone else, than in fact they probably received more votes from those who didn't want full extension.

Course other polls say different things but I think either way it goes to far to say that the people want full extensions.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/itsallpoli...nsion-for-all-gets-confusing-reviews-in-polls
 
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Wiseone said:
http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2010/images/11/17/rel16e.pdf

Only a third support the full extension according to this poll. So assuming those third in America which support it also vote with the same frequency as everyone else, than in fact they probably received more votes from those who didn't want full extension.

Course other polls say different things but I think either way it goes to far to say that the people want full extensions.

Tax Cut Extension For All Gets Confusing Reviews In Polls : It's All Politics : NPR
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If one does a little cross referencing with other recent polls that reflect a sizable percentage of people can't name the Vice President or even their own governor, it clears things up a little.

Am going to guess that a high number of the folks getting polled about the "tax extension legislation" don't have much of a clue what the question is/was.


Just a thought....



.
 
Wiseone said:
http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2010/images/11/17/rel16e.pdf

Only a third support the full extension according to this poll. So assuming those third in America which support it also vote with the same frequency as everyone else, than in fact they probably received more votes from those who didn't want full extension.

Course other polls say different things but I think either way it goes to far to say that the people want full extensions.

Tax Cut Extension For All Gets Confusing Reviews In Polls : It's All Politics : NPR
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So you are telling me the democrats voted against because their voters told them to vote for it and they just wanted to buck the system and side with the Republicans..........
 
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Wiseone said:
http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2010/images/11/17/rel16e.pdf

Only a third support the full extension according to this poll. So assuming those third in America which support it also vote with the same frequency as everyone else, than in fact they probably received more votes from those who didn't want full extension.

Course other polls say different things but I think either way it goes to far to say that the people want full extensions.

Tax Cut Extension For All Gets Confusing Reviews In Polls : It's All Politics : NPR
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Lets assume your numbers are correct. !/3rd supported the extension to those making over $200K, $250K couple, that supposedly is only 2% of taxpayers. 33% thinking it is good that those 2% to benefit like the rest of us. Approximately a 17 to 1 ratio. When are ****ing Democrats going to wake up to the the insanity of class envy, and how it destroys the job-creation sector ? Or is it all about some poll that is skewered to make stupid look smart ? Is raising the taxes on the job creators going to fix our almost 10% unemployment ? Has a libtard in ths entire forum made that argument, which would be pathetic anyway ? Does one want to make it now ? Does one liberal fool want to tell the rest of us how raising taxes is going to put people back to real work ? Jobs that are not government make-work ? Are the liberals in this forum that brain-dead to support any tax increase right now ? Make the argument libtards !

I am all for employers laying off the Democrats first when the need arises. Or at least those who voted Democrat. You voted for discriminatory taxation policy ? Say "hello" to its tangible manifestations. Now, if we can crank UI back to 26 weeks, you just might wake up when there is no more government teat for you to suckle !!
 
Eighty Deuce said:
Lets assume your numbers are correct. !/3rd supported the extension to those making over $200K, $250K couple, that supposedly is only 2% of taxpayers. 33% thinking it is good that those 2% to benefit like the rest of us. Approximately a 17 to 1 ratio. When are ****ing Democrats going to wake up to the the insanity of class envy, and how it destroys the job-creation sector ? Or is it all about some poll that is skewered to make stupid look smart ? Is raising the taxes on the job creators going to fix our almost 10% unemployment ? Has a libtard in ths entire forum made that argument, which would be pathetic anyway ? Does one want to make it now ? Does one liberal fool want to tell the rest of us how raising taxes is going to put people back to real work ? Jobs that are not government make-work ? Are the liberals in this forum that brain-dead to support any tax increase right now ? Make the argument libtards !

I am all for employers laying off the Democrats first when the need arises. Or at least those who voted Democrat. You voted for discriminatory taxation policy ? Say "hello" to its tangible manifestations. Now, if we can crank UI back to 26 weeks, you just might wake up when there is no more government teat for you to suckle !!
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My point was that its a little bit of a stretch to call it the will of the people when only 30-40% would support the full extension. Thats the only point I was trying to make. So unless you're going to argue that 30-40 is now a majority, or perhaps even the large majority or entirety of the people, then we aren't talking about the same thing.

See, the OP says its the will of the people. And I say no its probably somewhere between 30-40% who knows for sure, but its clearly not even close to a large majority which I'm assuming is what the OP says when it says "people."
 
Eighty Deuce said:
Lets assume your numbers are correct. !/3rd supported the extension to those making over $200K, $250K couple, that supposedly is only 2% of taxpayers. 33% thinking it is good that those 2% to benefit like the rest of us. Approximately a 17 to 1 ratio. When are ****ing Democrats going to wake up to the the insanity of class envy, and how it destroys the job-creation sector ? Or is it all about some poll that is skewered to make stupid look smart ? Is raising the taxes on the job creators going to fix our almost 10% unemployment ? Has a libtard in ths entire forum made that argument, which would be pathetic anyway ? Does one want to make it now ? Does one liberal fool want to tell the rest of us how raising taxes is going to put people back to real work ? Jobs that are not government make-work ? Are the liberals in this forum that brain-dead to support any tax increase right now ? Make the argument libtards !

I am all for employers laying off the Democrats first when the need arises. Or at least those who voted Democrat. You voted for discriminatory taxation policy ? Say "hello" to its tangible manifestations. Now, if we can crank UI back to 26 weeks, you just might wake up when there is no more government teat for you to suckle !!
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So are you telling us that a hedge fund manager making a cool billion or two/year is a job creator? :roll:
 
pbrauer said:
So are you telling us that a hedge fund manager making a cool billion or two/year is a job creator? :roll:
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when you dems want to tax only billionaires more maybe we can talk though I oppose progressive taxes to begin with

I do agree that the loophole that allowed these managers to claim their income is capital gains or dividends when its really earned income is specious.

however, I find it rather dishonest for those who advocate tax increases on all the top 2% to constantly reference 400 or so people
 
Wiseone said:
My point was that its a little bit of a stretch to call it the will of the people when only 30-40% would support the full extension. Thats the only point I was trying to make. So unless you're going to argue that 30-40 is now a majority, or perhaps even the large majority or entirety of the people, then we aren't talking about the same thing.

See, the OP says its the will of the people. And I say no its probably somewhere between 30-40% who knows for sure, but its clearly not even close to a large majority which I'm assuming is what the OP says when it says "people."
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Here is some more math for the subject. We are told that 47% do not pay ANY Federal INCOME tax. That leaves 53%. So 33% is probably a majority of those folks who actually support the government through income tax payments.
 
washunut said:
Here is some more math for the subject. We are told that 47% do not pay ANY Federal INCOME tax. That leaves 53%. So 33% is probably a majority of those folks who actually support the government through income tax payments.
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Here's some problems with that logic.
1) That 47% is from a careful and selective reading of the real numbers, and the implication that 47% of people pay no taxes is completly false since there are all kinds of different taxes.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/14/business/economy/14leonhardt.html

2) The poll in no way says that it only polled those who paid federal income tax.
3) Even if you don't pay those taxes, you're vote still counts the same as someone who does so there's no reason for a poll place to divide people like that since it only leaves them with less accurate information.
4) 33% of 53% of the people is still a minority, in fact its a smaller minority than if you took 33% of all Americans.
5) The Federal government makes money in many many more ways than Federal income taxes, so one can still not pay those taxes but still support the government.

6) 33% is not a majority and certainly can't be called the will of the people.
 
Wiseone said:
Here's some problems with that logic.
1) That 47% is from a careful and selective reading of the real numbers, and the implication that 47% of people pay no taxes is completly false since there are all kinds of different taxes.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/14/business/economy/14leonhardt.html

2) The poll in no way says that it only polled those who paid federal income tax.
3) Even if you don't pay those taxes, you're vote still counts the same as someone who does so there's no reason for a poll place to divide people like that since it only leaves them with less accurate information.
4) 33% of 53% of the people is still a minority, in fact its a smaller minority than if you took 33% of all Americans.
5) The Federal government makes money in many many more ways than Federal income taxes, so one can still not pay those taxes but still support the government.

6) 33% is not a majority and certainly can't be called the will of the people.
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why should there be a poll that discusses only the rich getting a tax hike then

that seems like a device to divide people

and asking people who don't pay income taxes or don't have any danger of being in the top bracket about what those in the top bracket should pay is rather silly and demonstrates the true evil in progressive tax schemes
 
IMO, the majority in Congress make more than 250K. While entirely legal, bet everone took advantage of the lower tax rate. Nothing stopped them from paying what they feel is a "fair share" to the US Treasury. Seem a bit odd to say the "rich" should pay more, yet those in Congress could not bring themselves to make the payment since the Bush tax cuts went into place. Its all political bs to say lets tax the rich, yet they don't lead by example.
 
TurtleDude said:
why should there be a poll that discusses only the rich getting a tax hike then

that seems like a device to divide people

and asking people who don't pay income taxes or don't have any danger of being in the top bracket about what those in the top bracket should pay is rather silly and demonstrates the true evil in progressive tax schemes
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Did you read the explaination, Federal income taxes doesn't mean all income taxes and it doesn't mean all taxes. Also the system works so its one citizen, one vote so polling everyone makes sense to me personally.

But point being, the majority of people don't support a full extension, doing so is not the will of the people
 
Wiseone said:
Did you read the explaination, Federal income taxes doesn't mean all income taxes and it doesn't mean all taxes. Also the system works so its one citizen, one vote so polling everyone makes sense to me personally.

But point being, the majority of people don't support a full extension, doing so is not the will of the people
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gee duh-but its the income tax rates that are the subject of this thread.
 
Wiseone said:
Did you read the explaination, Federal income taxes doesn't mean all income taxes and it doesn't mean all taxes. Also the system works so its one citizen, one vote so polling everyone makes sense to me personally.

But point being, the majority of people don't support a full extension, doing so is not the will of the people
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1. No, the income tax is not all tax paid. It is the topic of discussion for this thread though, not the myriad of other shell games our Federal Government uses to fleece us.

2. No, by CNN's poll, (CNN Polls tend to skew left BTW) a majority do not support the extension. But Rasmussen (which has recently been accused of skewing to the right) has polls that say they do. Polls may not lie, but liars sure can poll.

The will of the people? How many of the people even know what they want, or even care? That is truly hard to determine, but IMHO the results at the polling booth seem to be a better indicator than widely varying opinion polls. I do not think a majority have shifted that radically in the last few weeks. I could be wrong, but I doubt it.
 
Technocrat said:
1. No, the income tax is not all tax paid. It is the topic of discussion for this thread though, not the myriad of other shell games our Federal Government uses to fleece us.

2. No, by CNN's poll, (CNN Polls tend to skew left BTW) a majority do not support the extension. But Rasmussen (which has recently been accused of skewing to the right) has polls that say they do. Polls may not lie, but liars sure can poll.

The will of the people? How many of the people even know what they want, or even care? That is truly hard to determine, but IMHO the results at the polling booth seem to be a better indicator than widely varying opinion polls. I do not think a majority have shifted that radically in the last few weeks. I could be wrong, but I doubt it.
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So do you have a source for that poll? Also people vote for politicians for many different reasons and if a voter selects an individual, it does not mean they both agree on everything. So if a politician who supports full extension is elected, doesn't exactly mean all his voters support that idea too. It may be a good indication but by no means a certainty.
 
Wiseone said:
Here's some problems with that logic.
1) That 47% is from a careful and selective reading of the real numbers, and the implication that 47% of people pay no taxes is completly false since there are all kinds of different taxes.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/14/business/economy/14leonhardt.html

2) The poll in no way says that it only polled those who paid federal income tax.
3) Even if you don't pay those taxes, you're vote still counts the same as someone who does so there's no reason for a poll place to divide people like that since it only leaves them with less accurate information.
4) 33% of 53% of the people is still a minority, in fact its a smaller minority than if you took 33% of all Americans.
5) The Federal government makes money in many many more ways than Federal income taxes, so one can still not pay those taxes but still support the government.

6) 33% is not a majority and certainly can't be called the will of the people.
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First, please note that I put emphasis on the wording INCOME TAX, maybe now you will pick this up.

Maybe someone else would like to respond to your thought that 33% is less than half 53%??!!

Lastly, sure everyone gets to vote. But to ask people who pay zero to fund the federal government should others pay more is nuts on it's face. If those 47% were more productive we would not be in the debt problem we are. These people may not be lazy ( a blanket statement either way is silly) but they sure do not create much wealth.
 
washunut said:
First, please note that I put emphasis on the wording INCOME TAX, maybe now you will pick this up.

Maybe someone else would like to respond to your thought that 33% is less than half 53%??!!

Lastly, sure everyone gets to vote. But to ask people who pay zero to fund the federal government should others pay more is nuts on it's face. If those 47% were more productive we would not be in the debt problem we are. These people may not be lazy ( a blanket statement either way is silly) but they sure do not create much wealth.
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I feel like I should be re-posting the exact same post again...
The 47% is a bull**** number. And the fact that you believe that funding the federal government is the same as paying a federal income tax really shows an ignorance of the issue.

Anyway the whole original point of my posts here was that the full tax cut extensions aren't supported by the majority of voters, which is the case, especially since you haven't sourced your statement that the numbers are actually in favor.
 
Wiseone said:
So do you have a source for that poll? Also people vote for politicians for many different reasons and if a voter selects an individual, it does not mean they both agree on everything. So if a politician who supports full extension is elected, doesn't exactly mean all his voters support that idea too. It may be a good indication but by no means a certainty.
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It was quoted on my local CBS affiliate this evening, I am still looking for it.

My point is that any single poll, from any polling agency, cannot be held up as an absolute indicator of what the people want. Polls vary for lots of reasons, & can be slanted by the wording of the question, the order the questions are asked in & the methodology used in selecting the population sample.

Your same same arguments can be made for why a person responds to a particular poll question on a particular day.

The bigger question is why should we be punishing the producers in our society? They already pick up the lions share of the income tax.

Even the father of the modern Democratic Party, JFK understood that increasing the tax rate does not increase revenue when it slows the economy. The way to increase revenues is to stop hobbling the economy & let it grow..
 
Wiseone said:
I feel like I should be re-posting the exact same post again...
The 47% is a bull**** number. And the fact that you believe that funding the federal government is the same as paying a federal income tax really shows an ignorance of the issue.

Anyway the whole original point of my posts here was that the full tax cut extensions aren't supported by the majority of voters, which is the case, especially since you haven't sourced your statement that the numbers are actually in favor.
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You keep saying its a "BS number", citing other fringe taxes, but then fail to acknowledge how many who pay no federal income tax are net tax recipients through all the Fed giveaway programs of OPM, as in redistribution. When other folks pay up to 35% FEDERAL INCOME TAX without fringes, and almost half the U.S. pays NONE, your argument is moot.
 
Just some additional info. According to the acclaimed polling organization Gallup:

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You can find a link to this data here. Notably, there is greatest public support for keeping the tax cuts for all but the wealthiest Americans. Also, given that some form of tax cut will be renewed, a majority (57%) want the tax cuts to expire for the wealthy.

Addressing the claim by some on the "left" that the rich only want the tax cuts because they'll make money off it, there is little evidence for this within the general population.

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I hope this helps.
 
send the link to joe manchin

and hurry!
 
He's absolutely correct. Does it matter? No. It'll still get renewed.

What's worse than having taxes the same level they were 10 years ago? Having low taxes and not balancing the budget. How about instead of hurting the middle class FOR ONCE we take something from the rich and cut military spending significantly. At least to the level China has theirs at. There is no threat to the United States mainland that requires a military budget that's the size of the rest of the world's combined.

But no. I'm sure that in the following years the rich will get more and more concessions, while the middle/lower classes will get screwed continually. Nothing new.

Also, the United States is 82nd out of the countries we have data for in UN 10%R/P (income inequality between top and bottom 10%) and 76th in the CIA 10%R/P. Only 4 places above Iran.
 
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