US deploys 'game-changer' weapon to Afghanistan

The Mark said:

That depends...I haven't heard anything about its close-range capabilities, but I would assume it would demand at least the same stand-off range as an M-203 (something like 50 feet, I think? Or was it yards? Whatever). Then again, it sort of fires a (really large) rifle round, so if they could provide it with slug rounds, or contact-fused shells...

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kill radius for a 40mm (what i'm familiar with) is about 50-100 meters. so let's assume that a 25 mm is about a third of that; and give it 20-30 meters. urban warfare can see you engaging the enemy from 5-10 feet. this is a weapon where you can shoot your enemy and blow yourself up.

For close range, sure...

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well, as i said, more for breaching; but for very close range (that 5-10 feet) yes. though usually the training will have taken over and you'll be firing hammer-pairs at that point anywho.

On another tangent, this thing’s electronic systems might make it a good match to a Heli - UAV and/or ground-based combat robot thingy…

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i could see it as part of a vehicle-mounted patrol, similar to how we use the 6-shooters.


but for this kind of money (24 bucks a round?) i'd still rather have a better caliber.

cpwill said:

we don't have it; and the shotguns are used more for breaching than they are for direct fire.

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Can you explain the bolded part for me please. Not sure I understand the term.

ceramic (though i suppose you can use slug if your careful, but i wouldn't) rounds that blow hinges off of doors. the trick is that you have to pre-load the shotgun, and we don't have it in the Marines as a attachment. so once a breacher hits the hinges, then the door falls and he is facing bad guys with a weapon holding ceramic rounds, which means that he is now facing bad guys while trying to sling one weapon and bring another to bear. this can be..... embarassing. currently we solve the problem by having the point man buttonhook around the breacher, a move that begs for trouble, tripping, miscommunication, and other things that are similarly...awkward. having the shotty as an attachment allows that Marine to blow the hinges and instantly bring a weapon to bear on whomever is exposed when the door gives.

cpwill said:

the 203 is 40mm.

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Right.

I think this was on the Wiki for the 203, where it states under the "Rounds" section:

M576 Buckshot ("Beehive"). Contains 20 pellets of #4 buckshot. Used for room clearing and point blank firing. Essentially a 12-gauge shotgun shell.

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Now, last time I looked at that wiki page (1-2 days ago), it said "Essentially a 1.2-gauge shotgun shell". I can only assume someone modified it, but since on the Gauge Wiki says a 12-gauge is:

A 12-gauge shotgun, nominally 18.5 mm (0.73 in), can range from a tight 18.3 mm (0.72 in) to an extreme overbore of 20.3 mm (0.80 in).

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Well...Perhaps there is some information disconnect? Or perhaps I don't understand this gauge bit.

/shrug

cpwill said:

kill radius for a 40mm (what I’m familiar with) is about 50-100 meters. so let's assume that a 25 mm is about a third of that; and give it 20-30 meters. urban warfare can see you engaging the enemy from 5-10 feet. this is a weapon where you can shoot your enemy and blow yourself up.

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Well, if you try to use it point-blank...I would think that the "anti-enfilade" aspects of its airburst capability might dictate the user be located at the rear of any patrol…But come to think of it, currently it wouldn’t seem to be worth much as a direct-fire weapon, and especially not at close range.

As I said though, if they could offer shotgun-like slug or shot “dumb” rounds, those could be carried in the magazine for more normal purposes, and the airburst rounds could be loaded at need.

Still, it sounds a bit cumbersome…

cpwill said:

well, as I said, more for breaching; but for very close range (that 5-10 feet) yes. Though usually the training will have taken over and you'll be firing hammer-pairs at that point anywho.

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I assume “hammer-pairs” refers to two rifle rounds fired in quick succession? Something like the “double-tap” I read about in books when (more often) pistols are involved?

Then again, I would assume a shotgun attachment would lead to training changes – so perhaps…

cpwill said:

i could see it as part of a vehicle-mounted patrol, similar to how we use the 6-shooters.


But for this kind of money (24 bucks a round?) I’d still rather have a better caliber.

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I’m guessing that to make a rifled (I assume it’s rifled, since they mentioned “measuring spin”?) long-range grenade launcher in a size that was reasonably man-portable required the smaller caliber, seeing as the much larger than rifle-caliber round would demand more powder at launch to reach rifle ranges..ah, what do I know…

But I was connecting the electronically - controlled airburst capability to the (more than likely) electronic aiming methods involved with a UAV or (WTH do you call a ground-based combat robot, a UGV? ). Seemed like a potential good fit.

zimmer said:

Original source: AFP



Beautiful... absolutely beautiful. The timing couldn't be better.

.

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Not really a game-changer, seeing as how it won't really change the fact that the US-NATO alliance is losing the war in Afghanistan.

Mr. Invisible said:

Not really a game-changer, seeing as how it won't really change the fact that the US-NATO alliance is losing the war in Afghanistan.

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Correction: Obama is losing the war.

He will face this issue when he seeks reelection in 2012. Can you see Obama's campaign slogan: "Escalation on the road to defeat."

The Mark said:

Well, if you try to use it point-blank...I would think that the "anti-enfilade" aspects of its airburst capability might dictate the user be located at the rear of any patrol…But come to think of it, currently it wouldn’t seem to be worth much as a direct-fire weapon, and especially not at close range.

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so it couldn't be someone's primary weapon; that's a major issue for a weapon of this weight.

As I said though, if they could offer shotgun-like slug or shot “dumb” rounds, those could be carried in the magazine for more normal purposes, and the airburst rounds could be loaded at need.

Still, it sounds a bit cumbersome

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and time-consuming.

I assume hammer-pairs refers to two rifle rounds fired in quick succession? Something like the double-tap I read about in books when (more often) pistols are involved?

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sort of; double-taps generally refers to two shots fired in quick succession into the same target in order to ensure a hit. there are two kinds of "double taps"; the hammer pair, and the controlled pair. for the controlled pair, you use a different sight picture for each shot; so they are close together, but each is aimed. for the hammer pair, you are using one sight picture for two shots, so only the first is aimed and the second is a derivative of the first dependent on how good you are at controlling rise. generally the controlled pair is for median distance and the hammer pair is for the short distances that you see in MOUT (urban terrain).

Then again, I would assume a shotgun attachment would lead to training changes; so perhaps

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we already utilize shotguns; i think the necessary adjustment would be minimal.

But I was connecting the electronically - controlled airburst capability to the (more than likely) electronic aiming methods involved with a UAV or (WTH do you call a ground-based combat robot, a UGV? ). Seemed like a potential good fit.

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if a UAV weapon doesn't work as advertised then it sucks. back to base for repair. if me and johnnie taliban round a corner and i pull first, fire, and my weapon doesn't do anything, that's a major issue for me.

cpwill said:

so it couldn't be someone's primary weapon; that's a major issue for a weapon of this weight.

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Indeed. This weapon seemingly would be better used from long range, as a supporting (similar in some ways to a sniper covering you?) weapon.

cpwill said:

and time-consuming.

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Well, that depends...If you had different mags loaded with the different types of rounds...But still...

cpwill said:

sort of; double-taps generally refers to two shots fired in quick succession into the same target in order to ensure a hit. there are two kinds of "double taps"; the hammer pair, and the controlled pair. for the controlled pair, you use a different sight picture for each shot; so they are close together, but each is aimed. for the hammer pair, you are using one sight picture for two shots, so only the first is aimed and the second is a derivative of the first dependent on how good you are at controlling rise. generally the controlled pair is for median distance and the hammer pair is for the short distances that you see in MOUT (urban terrain).

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Interesting.

Thanks for the explanation.

cpwill said:

we already utilize shotguns; I think the necessary adjustment would be minimal.

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I was thinking more specifically of the building entry tactics you mentioned, but that would be minimal, I agree...

cpwill said:

if a UAV weapon doesn't work as advertised then it sucks. back to base for repair. if me and johnnie taliban round a corner and I pull first, fire, and my weapon doesn't do anything, that's a major issue for me.

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Quite true...

Albert Di Salvo said:

Correction: Obama is losing the war.

He will face this issue when he seeks reelection in 2012. Can you see Obama's campaign slogan: "Escalation on the road to defeat."

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Obama is fighting in Afghanistan?

This is news to me

cpwill said:

so it couldn't be someone's primary weapon; that's a major issue for a weapon of this weight.



and time-consuming.



sort of; double-taps generally refers to two shots fired in quick succession into the same target in order to ensure a hit. there are two kinds of "double taps"; the hammer pair, and the controlled pair. for the controlled pair, you use a different sight picture for each shot; so they are close together, but each is aimed. for the hammer pair, you are using one sight picture for two shots, so only the first is aimed and the second is a derivative of the first dependent on how good you are at controlling rise. generally the controlled pair is for median distance and the hammer pair is for the short distances that you see in MOUT (urban terrain).



we already utilize shotguns; i think the necessary adjustment would be minimal.



if a UAV weapon doesn't work as advertised then it sucks. back to base for repair. if me and johnnie taliban round a corner and i pull first, fire, and my weapon doesn't do anything, that's a major issue for me.

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An AT-4 weighs 14 pounds and isn't anything close to being compact. It's not a primary weapon.

cpwill said:

kill radius for a 40mm (what i'm familiar with) is about 50-100 meters. so let's assume that a 25 mm is about a third of that; and give it 20-30 meters. urban warfare can see you engaging the enemy from 5-10 feet. this is a weapon where you can shoot your enemy and blow yourself up.



well, as i said, more for breaching; but for very close range (that 5-10 feet) yes. though usually the training will have taken over and you'll be firing hammer-pairs at that point anywho.



i could see it as part of a vehicle-mounted patrol, similar to how we use the 6-shooters.


but for this kind of money (24 bucks a round?) i'd still rather have a better caliber.

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Where do you get that from? The kill radius of a 40mm round is only 5 meters.