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Pentagon: Letting openly gay troops serve won't hurt military

OscarB63 said:
yeah, they beat the **** out of him and he gets the message. either way...problem solved.
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Actually, that solves exactly no problems. It's juvenile and retarded.
 
OscarB63 said:
go ahead and repeal DADT. just because you can serve openly as gay, doesn't mean you have to. as long as you don't stand in the corner of the shower eyeing my junk and soaping yourself, I could care less. and that probably wouldn't even bother me. Just don't get your feelings hurt when you do something lame/weak or sissified and I call you gay. I think in most cases it is a non-issue. The kind of gay who will join the military is not typically going to be the flamer who wants to give blowjobs to every guy in the shower.
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This is the basic truth. The experiences from other militaries where gays are allowed to serve openly is that most don't go out of their way to reveal their orientation(see RAND study a few years back, can dig out link if needed). The limp wristed sissy gay guy is probably not going to join the military, and if they do, probably won't make it. Most gays are not like that, and can serve with no problem. In fact, most gays realize that strait people can be uncomfortable around them and try and make it a point to avoid doing things to offend or make others feel uncomfortable.
 
Kandahar said:
We have heard many people (both on this board and in Congress) urging that we don't repeal DADT until the results of this study were in, and not unless it showed that the military approved. Now the results ARE in. Will they finally change their minds?
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I was one of those people. I supported removal of it rhetorically, but practically, I wanted internal studies to be finished rather than thinking it was a good idea to just move in before researching. When the results came in, I only worried about Army and Marine reactions, which still seem to be more against the repeal. That being said, this is a positive development for supporters of repeal.
 
Redress said:
Actually, that solves exactly no problems. It's juvenile and retarded.
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if you are a guy and another guy is bothering you and you ask/tell him to stop and he doesn't....don't cry to daddy. MAKE him stop.

as I have always told my Joes, solve the problem at the lowest level.
 
I'm gonna delve into a not very constructive argument for a moment. Why do homophobic straight guys always think gays are going to hit on them, touch them, or rape them? Do you do that to women you want? Do women do that to you? Do you see some insanely high incidence of rape in the homosexual community? The fear seems to be unwanted sexual advances from homosexuals towards heterosexuals.

Let me ask you this. How often do you hit on, molest, or rape lesbians? Cuz that's exactly how much of that you'll see from gay soldiers.

Homosexuals are attracted to OTHER homosexuals, not all males. All of this fear of gays in the midst of heteros is an absurd fear.
 
OscarB63 said:
if you are a guy and another guy is bothering you and you ask/tell him to stop and he doesn't....don't cry to daddy. MAKE him stop.

as I have always told my Joes, solve the problem at the lowest level.
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And when you try and make him stop and he kicks the **** out of you, what then? Sorry, but getting in fights over juvenile **** is retarded.
 
Ockham said:
Men don't run to the CO because a fellow man hit on them in the shower and continues to do it. Go ahead and ask me why.
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I knew a guy who turned in a shipyard chick for kissing him.

I call bull that a guy wouldn't turn in another guy who was hitting on him after saying he wasn't interested. Some might not, and decide to take care of it on their own. Those guys deserve punishment then right alongside the guy that couldn't take no for an answer.
 
soccerboy22 said:
If they were to hit on you I would expect you to report it. Just like I would expect a woman to report a man hitting on them.
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What about the trust issues it causes in combat conditions
 
ptif219 said:
What about the trust issues it causes in combat conditions
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What trust issues would being gay cause they weren't just plain ignorance?

An openly gay guy who does their job and acts professionally should be shown the same amount of trust that a straight guy who acts the same way gets. It's really not that hard.

And, if a gay guy is constantly hitting on someone who has turned them down, then that guy needs to get punished and very possibly transferred. I can support transfers due to actions. Even changing the guy's job and/or possible discharge depending on how severe the incident was.

Every individual soldier should be judge on their own actions, not the actions of another person who has some identifying characteristic with that person. For instance, if you have a guy who is caught in women's barracks, stealing panties or worse, those who know of the incident shouldn't start automatically be mistrusting to other people who are the same race, in the same unit/job, or from the same state/city as that guy is. That is discrimination.
 
ptif219 said:
What about the trust issues it causes in combat conditions
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I have served two combat tours in Iraq, 1st tour we had a couple of dudes everyone suspected was gay, never had any "trust" issues with them on any of our patrols. 2nd tour we had at least one suspected gay guy and an entire squads worth of lesbian MPs (5 of 6 females in one platoon were carpet munchers). I went out on many missions with a lesbian gunner and gay driver, with a lesbian medic in the trail vehicle. never had any worries about them not being willing or able to do their job if the **** hit the fan.


this is a non-issue
 
Redress said:
I cannot speak for all bases, only for my experiences. I never past boot camp showered in an open bay type shower. Even on ship we had stalls with curtains. Gays did serve back then, and many of them somewhat openly. I knew of 2 gays in my command when I served, neither went out of their way to hide it, while never actually confirming it. Nobody cared much. Showering was never an issue. It's still not an issue. College kids shower with openly flamboyant gays in communal showers still in dorms. They manage it without any trouble. So do athletes.

There is a total of zero evidence that allowing gays to serve openly would "tear apart our military". Absolutely none. In fact, based on the DoD review and the evidence from other services that have allowed gays to serve openly, there is a mountain of evidence that it will not tear apart our military. To suggest it will is pure emotional rhetoric.
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Until you have been on a Army Post you really cannot say **** about our latrines because you dont know. Have you been to Ft Bragg? How about Ft Benning Harmony Church? Or Sand Hill? How about Caserma Ederle Italy? Or 3rd Ranger Batt? Bad Tolz Germany PCT? You been to everyone of these Army Posts? Because if you had you would realize what an idiotic statement you just made. All these Army Posts have open showers. Now some Army Posts have private rooms and private latrines but the majority of combat MOS barracks I have been lived in have open showers.

College kids are not highly trained soldiers that are taught to kill with their hands. Tolerance for gays in combat MOS is at a low if toleranced at all. Zero evidence yet you have never served in a combat MOS bwecause if you had you would have to call yourself a liar.

Emotional rhetoric? How the hell do you know? You never been where the majority of combat troops live because you have never been one of us. Your running your mouth about **** you have never experienced and have no clue about. I dont care about "other" services because they are not combat troops. And in my 20 years of military service I have seen first hand where openly gay troops are threatened, beaten and belittled by the majority of the troops esp black and hispanics. You dont have years of experience to draw from and I doubt you ever had to counsel or Art 15 a troop for admitting their homosexual lifestyle or the troops that abused another because of advances made unwantedly.

In closing you dont know **** and have proved it time and time again in this thread.
 
OscarB63 said:
I have served two combat tours in Iraq, 1st tour we had a couple of dudes everyone suspected was gay, never had any "trust" issues with them on any of our patrols. 2nd tour we had at least one suspected gay guy and an entire squads worth of lesbian MPs (5 of 6 females in one platoon were carpet munchers). I went out on many missions with a lesbian gunner and gay driver, with a lesbian medic in the trail vehicle. never had any worries about them not being willing or able to do their job if the **** hit the fan.


this is a non-issue
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But you have to admit gays are not trusted by the majority of the troops. Do gays serve any different than straights? Not in my opinion. Hell I shared a NCO billets with one that would go to the local gay bars on the weekends. He was a hell of a soldier and could hang with any of us. But the poor guy had to put up with countless slurs and name calling by the rest of the platoon. Hell even our SFC called him Sgt Fancy Pants.
 
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ptif219 said:
What about the trust issues it causes in combat conditions
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It's weird how this is beginning to mirror allowing women to serve. If this is the only complaint, then DADT can be repealed and gays who choose to come out can be moved to non combat positions. This really isn't an argument against repeal of DADT.
 
Heavy Duty said:
Until you have been on a Army Post you really cannot say **** about our latrines because you dont know. Have you been to Ft Bragg? How about Ft Benning Harmony Church? Or Sand Hill? How about Caserma Ederle Italy? Or 3rd Ranger Batt? Bad Tolz Germany PCT? You been to everyone of these Army Posts? Because if you had you would realize what an idiotic statement you just made. All these Army Posts have open showers. Now some Army Posts have private rooms and private latrines but the majority of combat MOS barracks I have been lived in have open showers.

College kids are not highly trained soldiers that are taught to kill with their hands. Tolerance for gays in combat MOS is at a low if toleranced at all. Zero evidence yet you have never served in a combat MOS bwecause if you had you would have to call yourself a liar.

Emotional rhetoric? How the hell do you know? You never been where the majority of combat troops live because you have never been one of us. Your running your mouth about **** you have never experienced and have no clue about. I dont care about "other" services because they are not combat troops. And in my 20 years of military service I have seen first hand where openly gay troops are threatened, beaten and belittled by the majority of the troops esp black and hispanics. You dont have years of experience to draw from and I doubt you ever had to counsel or Art 15 a troop for admitting their homosexual lifestyle or the troops that abused another because of advances made unwantedly.

In closing you dont know **** and have proved it time and time again in this thread.
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I've been to Fort Bragg when my brother was stationed there. He was an E-3 and shared a barracks room with one other guy and I believed it was a suite, so they would have shared the head with two other guys. There was one shower, so then they would still be showering alone.

And I was in my husband's barracks room several times at Kaneohe Bay Marine Corps base. He shared his room and head with his roommate only, and was also an E-3 at the time.

This is all consistant with what I have seen everywhere I've been in the Navy as well. On the ship, and even on the barge, we had separate shower stalls. The only time I had to shower in openbay showers was during bootcamp, and during that time, your one and only concern should be getting as clean as you can in the 2-3 minutes you have to do so.

Now, both my husband and brother confirm that there were either barely separate shower stalls or open bay showers while in combat zones, but neither were bothered that there might be gay guys staring at them if they happened to have to get undressed in front of them. The gay guys are there, in both Marine and Army combat units now.
 
roguenuke said:
I've been to Fort Bragg when my brother was stationed there. He was an E-3 and shared a barracks room with one other guy and I believed it was a suite, so they would have shared the head with two other guys. There was one shower, so then they would still be showering alone.

And I was in my husband's barracks room several times at Kaneohe Bay Marine Corps base. He shared his room and head with his roommate only, and was also an E-3 at the time.

This is all consistant with what I have seen everywhere I've been in the Navy as well. On the ship, and even on the barge, we had separate shower stalls. The only time I had to shower in open bay showers was during bootcamp, and during that time, your one and only concern should be getting as clean as you can in the 2-3 minutes you have to do so.

Now, both my husband and brother confirm that there were either barely separate shower stalls or open bay showers while in combat zones, but neither were bothered that there might be gay guys staring at them if they happened to have to get undressed in front of them. The gay guys are there, in both Marine and Army combat units now.
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The Airborne barracks at Bragg were built in WW2, well at least the 325th were. They are two man rooms with a latrine at both ends of the hall. Open showers.
 
Heavy Duty said:
But you have to admit gays are not trusted by the majority of the troops. Do gays serve any different than straights? Not in my opinion. Hell I shared a NCO billets with one that would go to the local gay bars on the weekends. He was a hell of a soldier and could hang with any of us. But the poor guy had to put up with countless slurs and name calling by the rest of the platoon. Hell even our SFC called him Sgt Fancy Pants.
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I have never seen it. went to basic in 1984. yeah the gay guys got slurs, had one guy we called "sweet mike" and another whose nickname was PVT Puffsalot. but the black guys got it, the skinny guys got it, the fat guys got it, the short guys got it. everyone got it. the gay dudes I knew didn't get treated any differently or trusted any less than anyone else. the only difference was they couldn't come out and admit they were gay.

I started out as a 13B, then got crosstrained to 82C and finally 14T. got my commission as a 14E and then they made me an MP 31A. this last tour I deployed as the BN logistics officer (90A) and spent most of the tour running logpacks from Baghdad to COB Gary Owen, COB Basrah, FOB Minden and Shaibah. I am 99% sure my driver this tour was gay, called him Daisy Duke because he was from GA. Helluva guy and never once let me down.
 
OscarB63 said:
I have never seen it. went to basic in 1984. yeah the gay guys got slurs, had one guy we called "sweet mike" and another whose nickname was PVT Puffsalot. but the black guys got it, the skinny guys got it, the fat guys got it, the short guys got it. everyone got it. the gay dudes I knew didn't get treated any differently or trusted any less than anyone else. the only difference was they couldn't come out and admit they were gay.

I started out as a 13B, then got crosstrained to 82C and finally 14T. got my commission as a 14E and then they made me an MP 31A. this last tour I deployed as the BN logistics officer (90A) and spent most of the tour running logpacks from Baghdad to COB Gary Owen, COB Basrah, FOB Minden and Shaibah. I am 99% sure my driver this tour was gay, called him Daisy Duke because he was from GA. Helluva guy and never once let me down.
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One of the gay guys I served with taught some of the guys the joys of aerobics classes. A good workout, and hang out in the back of the class and watch the women exercise.
 
Heavy Duty said:
The Airborne barracks at Bragg were built in WW2, well at least the 325th were. They are two man rooms with a latrine at both ends of the hall. Open showers.
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Yeah, I just realized that I messed up which base I was thinking about. Sorry. He was at Ft. Hood. I have issues with Ft. Bragg right now. They are on my "hate" list.

But it doesn't matter anyway, because the rest of what I said is completely true. Those soldiers are still sharing those showers now with gay soldiers. Also, very few soldiers have specific shower times outside of bootcamp or punishment. Which means, that if they want to avoid a gay guy looking at them, then they can just make sure that they shower without anyone else in the showers, afterall, even after DADT is repealed, it will not force gay guys to reveal that they are gay, so someone is still taking the chance that a gay guy may be checking them out.
 
I spent 6 weeks at Ft Leonard Wood for MP conversion training in '03. Due to renovations and contruction, the only place they had to billet us was these ****ty old vietnam era metal barracks (the kind you saw on Heartbreak Ridge and Gomer Pyle). As a 1LT and platoon leader, I got the luxury of a 6x8 "private" room at the front of my platoon's hut. The latrines were in a separate hut. 6-8 stalls, several washers and dryer and "the shower room". the shower room was about 8x8 with a single pole in the middle that sprouted 8-10 shower heads. it was so cramped that I lost count of the number of times I rubbed asses with the guy next to me whenever one of us would turn around.

Don't know for sure if any of the guys were gay...but we never had anyone try to hump someone in the shower.
 
roguenuke said:
Yeah, I just realized that I messed up which base I was thinking about. Sorry. He was at Ft. Hood. I have issues with Ft. Bragg right now. They are on my "hate" list.

But it doesn't matter anyway, because the rest of what I said is completely true. Those soldiers are still sharing those showers now with gay soldiers. Also, very few soldiers have specific shower times outside of bootcamp or punishment. Which means, that if they want to avoid a gay guy looking at them, then they can just make sure that they shower without anyone else in the showers, afterall, even after DADT is repealed, it will not force gay guys to reveal that they are gay, so someone is still taking the chance that a gay guy may be checking them out.
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When in a combat MOS after the poop for the next day there was a rush to shower seeing the majority of the time we were dirty and hot. There was a waiting list where when one guy got out he would yell your name out so you could pop in.

Hell we would do alot of gayish things while showering like ass slapping and laughing at the dudes with the smallest junk. Were there gays involved? I am sure there was but they knew better than to admit it or show any type homosexual behavior. Why? First because they knew they would get the holy **** kicked out of them by the troops that didnt tolerance it and two it was a one way ticket to see the Old Man.

The troops that kicked the **** out of the soldiers they thought was gay I talked about earlier got 15 days of extra duty and barracks restriction. That's it. Even Top didn't think troops were to be seriously punished for beating a gay soldier. Today might be different but in the 90's many of heads were turned the other way when soldiers were accused of mistreating gay soldiers. The end of my career I didn't deal with many troops in a one on one situation and would hear stuff secondhand if at all. But I doubt after 20 years the mentally of combat troops servicing with gay troops haven't changed much.
 
CriticalThought said:
Now I wanna join the military just so I can get a cool nickname.
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We had a "sweet John" in our department. He took the nickname on as a compliment. He was very openly gay. I don't know if he could hide it very well if he tried, but he was a great guy, smart, and a hard worker.
 
CriticalThought said:
Now I wanna join the military just so I can get a cool nickname.
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dude...I was LT Teabag for the first couple of years, I had a habit of threatening to "teabag" shirkers and malcontents. "Get caught sleeping on guard duty and the LT is gonna teabag you"
 
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