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U.S. nervously awaits next WikiLeaks

Lord Tammerlain said:
Realistically Turkey knows this already

The probability that the US has been directly assisting the PKK/PJAK terror groups has been reported already. What this may do is provide US government documents supporting those reports. Not earth shattering just damaging to US public image in Europe, Canada and even within the US.

I mean how can you be leading a war against terror when supporting a terrorist group that is fighting an ally

Of course some will say the actions of Turkey of late are not those of an ally to which I will point out that the US support of the PKK predates recent Turkish action that the US has found objectionable with the exception of not allowing the US to use Turkish territory in the invasion of Iraq
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Well, I don't blame Turkey for pulling away from the Western Axis and moving East if all these allegations are true
 
Harshaw said:
What makes you think it's necessary for you to know?
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It depends on the type of information leaked you are talking about.
Sure I can understand why releasing diplomat files is so bad.
But when it comes to Wikileaks releasing documents about civilian deaths and casualties, I think that is very good and support it.
 
Lord Tammerlain said:
Realistically Turkey knows this already

The probability that the US has been directly assisting the PKK/PJAK terror groups has been reported already. What this may do is provide US government documents supporting those reports. Not earth shattering just damaging to US public image in Europe, Canada and even within the US.

I mean how can you be leading a war against terror when supporting a terrorist group that is fighting an ally

Of course some will say the actions of Turkey of late are not those of an ally to which I will point out that the US support of the PKK predates recent Turkish action that the US has found objectionable with the exception of not allowing the US to use Turkish territory in the invasion of Iraq
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Whatever the case may be, the further problem with this is that the completeness of the documents is in doubt, so they almost certainly do not provide a complete picture -- though those giddy at the prospect of bashing the United States will certainly treat it that way. And who knows what the Wikileaks asswipes decide to hold back?
 
Laila said:
It depends on the type of information leaked you are talking about.
Sure I can understand why releasing diplomat files is so bad.
But when it comes to Wikileaks releasing documents about civilian deaths and casualties, I think that is very good and support it.
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You need a document leak to know there are casualties and civilian deaths during a war?
 
Harshaw said:
You need a document leak to know there are casualties and civilian deaths during a war?
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No but I want to know when my soldiers are ****ing up and it is hidden and alot HAS been hidden from the public which should have been released such as the fact a British Rifleman shooting dead an 8 year old Iraqi Girl for playing in the street. Oh I'm so sure she was such a security threat. Only after it was made public did the British Military launch an investigation. Bastard soldier probably would have got off scot free :roll:

Wikileaks is something I will support
 
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Laila said:
Well, I don't blame Turkey for pulling away from the Western Axis and moving East if all these allegations are true
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That the US has been supporting PJAK is in my opinion 95% likely. As PJAK and the PKK are rather the same organization ( Much like Ford US and Ford Europe) it would have also been supporting the PKK. Perhaps not intentionally wanting the PKK to use US support to attack Turkey, the end result would have been the US supporting terrorist groups Turkey directly. Indirectly by harbouring them in Iraq when the US did control Iraq and choose not to act against the PKK despite it being classed as a terrorist org
 
Lord Tammerlain said:
Realistically Turkey knows this already
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Assuming this is true, this is my point. Whereas before this would have been handled by intelligent diplomats, it would now be fodder for militants and extremists to push their government toward a more hardline stance. That would cause a deterioration in our relations and would lead to more strife in the region.

Laila/Orion/Kal stang - does that sound like a good thing to you?
 
Laila said:
No but I want to know when my soldiers are ****ing up and it is hidden and alot HAS been hidden from the public which should have been released such as the fact a British Rifleman shooting dead an 8 year old Iraqi Girl for playing in the street. Oh I'm so sure she was such a security threat. Only after it was made public did the British Military launch an investigation. Bastard soldier probably would have got off scot free :roll:

Wikileaks is something I will support
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Well, you may want to know, but you actually don't need to know about every mishap and mistake made by every soldier, even if it resulted in an unwarranted death.
 
Oh man, if this release includes Saudi/Muslim diplomats ... can't wait to see how they are behind closed door. Perhaps if we are lucky, they will get it bad and be disgraced
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Harshaw said:
Well, you may want to know, but you actually don't need to know about every mishap and mistake made by every soldier, even if it resulted in an unwarranted death.
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Well I'm not going to condemn wikileaks for releasing it either.

RightinNYC said:
Assuming this is true, this is my point. Whereas before this would have been handled by intelligent diplomats, it would now be fodder for militants and extremists to push their government toward a more hardline stance. That would cause a deterioration in our relations and would lead to more strife in the region.

Laila/Orion/Kal stang - does that sound like a good thing to you?
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The Muslim world will always be in strife. The extremists don't exactly need this data to tarnish the US and UK :shrug:
 
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Laila said:
The Muslim world will always be in strife. The extremists don't exactly need this data to tarnish the US and UK :shrug:
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That's not the question. I'm asking whether you'll still think this disclosure is a good thing if it leads to destabilization in turkey (or other ME nations) where more hard-liners take control.
 
RightinNYC said:
Assuming this is true, this is my point. Whereas before this would have been handled by intelligent diplomats, it would now be fodder for militants and extremists to push their government toward a more hardline stance. That would cause a deterioration in our relations and would lead to more strife in the region.

Laila/Orion/Kal stang - does that sound like a good thing to you?
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The militants and extremists will already know this as well, I expect most turks to be aware of it


The main effect would be to damage the US public image of those that care to look at the Wikileaks documents or reports in the US or Europe.
 
RightinNYC said:
That's not the question. I'm asking whether you'll still think this disclosure is a good thing if it leads to destabilization in turkey (or other ME nations) where more hard-liners take control.
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If it leads to it, no.

Turkey is gradually becoming more hard lined for many reasons, the population are becoming, thank god more practising Muslims and the side effect is Conservatism. Wouldn't surprise me if religion takes a hold in Turkey over secularism
 
Laila said:
Well I'm not going to condemn wikileaks for releasing it either.
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Well, when you can show an army which has ever conducted significant operations without mishaps or any large organizations which don't have anyone who does something wrong, I might buy that Wikileaks is doing something other than simply delivering fodder for people who delight in bashing. Oh, and gossip.
 
Lord Tammerlain said:
The militants and extremists will already know this as well, I expect most turks to be aware of it


The main effect would be to damage the US public image of those that care to look at the Wikileaks documents or reports in the US or Europe.
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There's a difference in impact between "The US is doing bad things! I'm telling you so you know it must be true!" and "The US is doing bad things! Here are the most inflammatory quotes directly from their documents, hand-picked by Der Spiegel, the Guardian and the NY Times!"
 
Harshaw said:
Well, when you can show an army which has ever conducted significant operations without mishaps or any large organizations which don't have anyone who does something wrong, I might buy that Wikileaks is doing something other than simply delivering fodder for people who delight in bashing. Oh, and gossip.
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Meh, I agree with you in general.
If it delivers Saudi records tho, I think I may just come from excitement.

I would hope from the bottom of my heart it is so controversial the data and hardlines take place over the Saudi Royals and if that was a side effect. I'd be cheering it on, believe me
 
Laila said:
If it leads to it, no.

Turkey is gradually becoming more hard lined for many reasons, the population are becoming, thank god more practising Muslims and the side effect is Conservatism. Wouldn't surprise me if religion takes a hold in Turkey over secularism
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So you're saying that you think this leak is awesome, but if it ends up causing a completely plausible result, then you'll be unhappy.

Given that, it seems a bit short-sighted to be cheering for this leak the way you have.
 
RightinNYC said:
That's not the question. I'm asking whether you'll still think this disclosure is a good thing if it leads to destabilization in turkey (or other ME nations) where more hard-liners take control.
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It wont destabilize Turkey. Turkey has been in my opinion adjusting its policies in part because of this, it has also prosecuted those that might try to form a coup against the Turkish government (the deep state). The PKK are already acting against the Turkish government. It will cause the more secular groups in Turkey a decline in prospects for future electoral success though
 
RightinNYC said:
There's a difference in impact between "The US is doing bad things! I'm telling you so you know it must be true!" and "The US is doing bad things! Here are the most inflammatory quotes directly from their documents, hand-picked by Der Spiegel, the Guardian and the NY Times!"
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Or, selectively released by Wikileaks.
 
RightinNYC said:
So you're saying that you think this leak is awesome, but if it ends up causing a completely plausible result, then you'll be unhappy.

Given that, it seems a bit short-sighted to be cheering for this leak the way you have.
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You asked whether it would be a good thing. I said No, if it occurs.
 
RightinNYC said:
There's a difference in impact between "The US is doing bad things! I'm telling you so you know it must be true!" and "The US is doing bad things! Here are the most inflammatory quotes directly from their documents, hand-picked by Der Spiegel, the Guardian and the NY Times!"
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Turkish media have reported finding US arms in the hands of PKK terrorists that it captured or killed. The Turkish government has complained about US support of the PKK publically. I am sure that any turk who pays any attention to current events believes the US has been supporting the PKK. Somethng reported in Der Spiegel is not going to change it. At most confirm it. The greatest effect will be in public opinion of europeans and Americans
 
Lord Tammerlain said:
It wont destabilize Turkey. Turkey has been in my opinion adjusting its policies in part because of this, it has also prosecuted those that might try to form a coup against the Turkish government (the deep state). The PKK are already acting against the Turkish government. It will cause the more secular groups in Turkey a decline in prospects for future electoral success though
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Lord Tammerlain said:
Turkish media have reported finding US arms in the hands of PKK terrorists that it captured or killed. The Turkish government has complained about US support of the PKK publically. I am sure that any turk who pays any attention to current events believes the US has been supporting the PKK. Somethng reported in Der Spiegel is not going to change it. At most confirm it. The greatest effect will be in public opinion of europeans and Americans
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Again, I think there's a substantial difference in the potential impact between individual reports of some tenuous ties and direct written confirmation of the nitty gritty details.

Laila said:
You asked whether it would be a good thing. I said No, if it occurs.
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What I'm saying is that I find it odd that you are supporting the leaks in the name of transparency, even though there is a non-trivial chance that the practical result of these leaks could be something that you would find objectionable.

In my book, real world consequences are more important than distorted versions of theoretical goals like "increased transparency".
 
Heavy Duty said:
Just remember neighbor to the North, when America is weaken you are at risk yourself without our blanket of protection. Without America, whom will Canada lean on? Yourselves.......................LOL
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If you knew about Canadian history maybe you'd see a twin or a possibly friend - rather than this stupid 'we hate Canadians' BS that comes from nowhere from a lot of Americans.

They've gone through the same stupid **** with the British Crown like we have.
They've fought the same fights we have. . . though we haven't always gotten along in this area.
They've supported us and we've supported them.

So - why the hate?

And with the 'we're #1!' attitude about our country naturally no on else would 'be #1!' - but those who aren't '#1!' are often just hated for the fact that they aren't '#1!' :shrug:
 
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RightinNYC said:
Assuming this is true, this is my point. Whereas before this would have been handled by intelligent diplomats, it would now be fodder for militants and extremists to push their government toward a more hardline stance. That would cause a deterioration in our relations and would lead to more strife in the region.

Laila/Orion/Kal stang - does that sound like a good thing to you?
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Of course it would cause a deterioration in our relations. Duh. Do you think that people actually LIKE being lied to? Do you think that people actually LIKE being plotted against in one hand and the other hand being all buddy buddy? Do you really think that there are not consequences to actions?

It is the nature of secrets to eventually be leaked out. If no one truely thought that this was never going to happen then they need to get their heads out of the sand. At least with what I have been argueing for the consequences to anything bad that happened would be far far less.

Our government made it's bed. Now it has to lie in it.

So in direct answer to your question. In the short term. No it's not a good idea. However in the long term? I think that it would do us some good. Assuming that we actually did this novel thing called "learning from our past mistakes".
 
Aunt Spiker said:
If you knew about Canadian history maybe you'd see a twin or a possibly friend - rather than this stupid 'we hate Canadians' BS that comes from nowhere from a lot of Americans.

They've gone through the same stupid **** with the British Crown like we have.
They've fought the same fights we have. . . though we haven't always gotten along in this area.
They've supported us and we've supported them.

So - why the hate?

And with the 'we're #1!' attitude about our country naturally no on else would 'be #1!' - but those who aren't '#1!' are often just hated for the fact that they aren't '#1!' :shrug:
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I consider the attitude between the US and Canada to be akin to high school rivalry. We hate each other because we are on opposite sides of the court. But the moment things got rough we normally band together due to respect for each other. Even if we don't show that respect.
 
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