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North Korea reportedly fires at South

North Korea is not the enemy.

In the entire world my only enemy is American Leftism. Anything that weakens it is good.

North Korea shows Obama as weak and feckless. Obama is the living, breathing embodiment of American Leftism. North Korea is solely a problem of the American Left because the Left is in charge.

Foreign adversaries can be used for domestic political purposes. Do you remember Michael Moore and the Second Iraq War? What's
good for the goose is good for the gander.
 
QUOTE dontworrybehappy

Quit trying to create strawmen don.
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Where is the strawman?The only strawman I see is the two you built.

The first one enters with the first sentence in your post.(Wait wait wait.....we've been down this road with liberals before)the strawman in this example is the dreaded …LIBRAL.:shock:

Not satisfied with one, you create a second one and name him... SADAM.(The last time we passed a resolution involving "serious consequences" against Saddam, you didn't support a war.)

now lets see what constitutes a straw man fallacy.


A straw man fallacy is criticizing, distorting, exaggerating or misrepresenting an argument or claim after you build a convenient strawman that you can knock down with ease.

You have built two boogiemen that wingers have been using for years. Classic strawmen,liberals and Sadam.And started a war using the later.:(


I asked her what "serious consequences" meant since the last time liberals used that phrase they didn't really mean anything SERIOUS, just more cheap talk. So I wanted to get clarification. Does she mean a full invasion of NK? Ousting KJI? A military buildup in the area? Strategic strikes against NK's nuclear capability?
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Yet you skip right over post#320 by Enigma001, who her question was directed at, who answers her question.Amazing. :roll:


Which leads us into this sentence.:lamo



I was asking her, not you. But thanks for playing.
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Yet you responded to her post to EnigmaO01 in post #310…. thanks for the attempt at playing. :2wave:
 
Albert Di Salvo said:
North Korea is not the enemy.

In the entire world my only enemy is American Leftism. Anything that weakens it is good.

North Korea shows Obama as weak and feckless. Obama is the living, breathing embodiment of American Leftism. North Korea is solely a problem of the American Left because the Left is in charge.

Foreign adversaries can be used for domestic political purposes. Do you remember Michael Moore and the Second Iraq War? What's
good for the goose is good for the gander.
Click to expand...

I agree that the American Left, in its haste to realize the dream of utopia and rainbows, unwittingly weakens the nation, but let's not go too far with it. North Korea behaved badly under President Bush as well.

The lesson to take away from this is that once these nations go nuke, they have a license to bully anyone they like. The Global Left (which is entirely different from the American Left and are mercilessly decrepit in their morality) would have the world believe that if we just give everybody nukes, then the universal system of MADD will prevail and lead us into a new peaceful era of mankind. Of course, this same lot also wishes to pretend that every nation on earth is rational and without religious motivations to see certain events unfold. Of course, this is about North Korea, which is a nation merely acting poorly without any sense of purpose to create a thriving society for its people. Imagine if "God" was on their side (to a greater degree, I mean.)

It doesn't matter what Party sits in the White House. Nuclear capability gives a nation the right to behave however they like. The goal should be to deny those nations too untrustworthy to weild the power. Because as North Korea has proven, a strongly worded letter of condemnation is all the most powerful nation in history is left with.
 
Albert Di Salvo said:
North Korea is not the enemy.
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No it's a benign peaceful loving nirvana of a nation where everybody wears love beads and sings Kumbya. Never killed anyone. It's all lies lies, lies! They love us and all outsiders! For the love of God what planet do you live on? :roll:

Albert Di Salvo said:
In the entire world my only enemy is American Leftism. Anything that weakens it is good.
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Newsflash: It's not the left that sabre rattles and gets us into needless wars. It's the right. Where have you been the last two decades? Under a rock?

Albert Di Salvo said:
North Korea shows Obama as weak and feckless. Obama is the living, breathing embodiment of American Leftism. North Korea is solely a problem of the American Left because the Left is in charge.
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Riiiiiiight. No other president had ever had a problem with NK going back to 1953. It all started when "weak" Obama took office. Dude you're killing me here with your revisionist history. Do you really believe this or have you got some kind of axe to grind? I think it's the latter.

Albert Di Salvo said:
Foreign adversaries can be used for domestic political purposes. Do you remember Michael Moore and the Second Iraq War? What's
good for the goose is good for the gander.
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Just ask George Bush and Dick Cheney about creating boogiemen for starting wars. They are experts at it. Michael Moore has never advocated war. What in the hell are you talking about?
 
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MSgt said:
North Korea behaved badly under President Bush as well.
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Don't stop there. They behaved badly under Clinton, Bush 1, Reagan, Carter etc. etc. Anyone remember the Pueblo? Hell that was during Johnson's presidency!
 
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MSgt said:
I agree that the American Left, in its haste to realize the dream of utopia and rainbows, unwittingly weakens the nation, but let's not go too far with it. North Korea behaved badly under President Bush as well.

The lesson to take away from this is that once these nations go nuke, they have a license to bully anyone they like. The Global Left (which is entirely different from the American Left and are mercilessly decrepit in their morality) would have the world believe that if we just give everybody nukes, then the universal system of MADD will prevail and lead us into a new peaceful era of mankind. Of course, this same lot also wishes to pretend that every nation on earth is rational and without religious motivations to see certain events unfold. Of course, this is about North Korea, which is a nation merely acting poorly without any sense of purpose to create a thriving society for its people. Imagine if "God" was on their side (to a greater degree, I mean.)

It doesn't matter what Party sits in the White House. Nuclear capability gives a nation the right to behave however they like. The goal should be to deny those nations too untrustworthy to weild the power. Because as North Korea has proven, a strongly worded letter of condemnation is all the most powerful nation in history is left with.
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I agree and i think this is a fitting quote;
An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.
Winston Churchill
 
EnigmaO01 said:
No it's a benign peaceful loving nirvana of a nation where everybody wears love beads and sings Kumbya. Never killed anyone. It's all lies lies, lies! They love us and all outsiders! For the love of God what planet do you live on? :roll:

The nature of the DPRK is irrelevant. America has no interests on the Korean Peninsula that justify involvement militarily.


Newsflash: It's not the left that sabre rattles and gets us into needless wars. It's the right. Where have you been the last two decades? Under a rock?

I saw the left use the Second Iraq War for domestic political purposes. Now the precedent is established and will be used against Obama in his grand Afghan adventure.

Riiiiiiight. No other president had ever had a problem with NK going back to 1953. It all started when "weak" Obama took office. Dude you're killing me here with your revisionist history. Do you really believe this or have you got some kind of axe to grind? I think it's the latter.

In his first administration Bush attempted to deal with NK harshly. The left told him he was a failure, and should not be confrontational. So he changed policy and returned to the Clinton positon.

We will cooperate with Obama on the issue of NK to the exact same extent the left cooperated with Bush's DPRK policy. You're right I have an axe to grind. I see the opportunity to discredit the left over NE Asia. Failure there will weaken America. The left will be blamed.

Just ask George Bush and Dick Cheney about creating boogiemen for starting wars. They are experts at it. Michael Moore has never advocated war. What in the hell are you talking about?
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Do you remember Michael Moore calling the Iraqi Insurgents "Minute Men?"
Heads Up... from Michael Moore | MichaelMoore.com

Do you remember Senator Harry Reid saying "This war is lost?"
 
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This thing is going to have to be settled diplomatically. You are probably going to see a lot of saber rattling from the US and South Korea, but there will not be any actual attack on the DPRK due to the fact that any war South Korea enters, the US would have to back them and since the US is tied up in Iraq and Afghanistan, they will not be getting any help. Currently the US and South Korea are going to do or are currently doing military drills in China's EEZ, which is bad because that isn't making China particularly happy and that will not translate into them working with the US and Russia to try and calm down North Korea.
 
EnigmaO01 said:
Agreed. They are probably sending weapons to NK as we speak. In a way this may be a test of our resolve or response for future reference. It would be a great diversion for our Navy while they take Taiwan. Or just a way to get us spread even thinner than we are.
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Safe to say people here in Taiwan are watching this closely, but I think the chances of the PRC making any overt moves against Taiwan now are remote... they prefer to curry favor with the current government of Taiwan, but any overt moves would hurt them electorally... then again, after the elections today are over, there are no more major elections here for another two years...
 
MSgt said:
Yeah, it's not like they could wipe our troops out in just a few nuclear blasts or nothing. When are you people going to get it? Once these nations gain nuclear capabilities, they are free to do as they please and there's nothing even the U.S. can do about it.
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I don't think serious ground ops are in the cards yet, but nukes aren't exactly useful against air strikes, and while control of the ground is in the final analysis what wins wars, the U.S. has scary has hell air capability it can bring to bear on the DPRK...
 
MSgt said:
You think its cowardice that the U.S. and the UN has focused solely on writing strongly worded letters of condemnation with China ignoring it? You think China has the magic wand? What's your solution?
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I agree there are no good options here. China does have the ability to bring the DPRK to heel, but not only does it NOT do so, it actually serves to prop up the regime. This serves China's interests in a number of ways. 1. Always nice to have a proxy to divert the world from your own human rights and aggressive problems, 2. They would in no way want to have a U.S.-friendly ROK up along the Yalu River looking across at Dandong, 3. If the regime falls apart, there will be an even greater refugee issue across the border into the three Manchurian provinces of Liaoning, Jilin, and Heilongjiang, there there are already long-standing (been there for nearly 2000 years) Korean communities... China has no interest in seeing the DPRK fall apart and every reason to want to see it continue to cause problems that it knows have a very little chance of actually flaring up into something major for the very good reasons you and others have brought up in this thread...
 
EnigmaO01 said:
With the technology and command of the skies available now on our side, I don't see it lasting as long as the last
conflict, as long as China does not get involved with troops on the ground. I may be naive but I don't think they will commit troops. No doubt they will try and supply NK with more weapons but if the strategic planning is right on our side it will be too late.

What I would love to see is a boycott of Chinese goods in this country if China tries to get involved. It's about time this country started making it's own goods and putting it's people back to work on jobs that have so far are gone forever.
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1. If the U.S. marches up toward the Yalu, I guarantee you the Chinese will get directly involved. I agree with you, initially, they would supply arms and so long as the U.S. doesn't threaten to actually topple the regime and try to install Seoul's control over the entire peninsula (if it were to get this far, it seems like a good bet they would, indeed, attempt to do this). If it DOES happen, China would get involved. -- this is a hypothetical as I don't believe things will get to that point in the short term. U.S. would be far more likely to engage in an air campaign (in the short term) rather than a massive ground invasion.

2. Americans should already be boycotting Chinese goods for a variety of reasons. Their support of the DPRK is, in fact, only a minor reason compared to some of the others.
 
I say THIS is the war the war America was MADE for. Subs are probably going into position. DESTROY THEM!!!! :coffeepap
 
Mr. Invisible said:
Currently the US and South Korea are going to do or are currently doing military drills in China's EEZ, which is bad because that isn't making China particularly happy and that will not translate into them working with the US and Russia to try and calm down North Korea.
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Actually, I don't believe they will be conducted in China's EEZ, but rather closer to the South Korean coast in their own EEZ. Not that it really matters as states don't have sovereign rights in their EEZ, only economic rights.
 
The Giant Noodle said:
I say THIS is the war the war America was MADE for. Subs are probably going into position. DESTROY THEM!!!! :coffeepap
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War is very messy and leads to more wars. If we hadn't divided Korea we wouldn't be dealing with this now.
 
The Giant Noodle said:
I say THIS is the war the war America was MADE for. Subs are probably going into position. DESTROY THEM!!!! :coffeepap
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I don't undertand your sentiment. Our history is rich with diverse conflict. We have engaged as guerillas and beaten guerillas. We have beaten religious extremists long before AL-Queda. We have engaged against pirates in the Med. We have fought in jungles and deserts. We have fought the grandest sea battles and engaged in World Wars. We have fought and emerged as victors against a nuclear enemy bent on shaping the world towards communist and oppressive idealism. It is true that the Army has made it a bad habit of focusing far too much on big box wars, but the entire military is specialized for all occassions. America has proven to have been "made" to do anything.

America's greatest mission for the last 200+ years has been to shatter empires and globalize the world. Obviously, this was in our best interests for survival, but plenty have gone before us with the same sense of self interests without the greater moral clause. North Korea represents the next step in this nuclear game. With much of the world seeking out American sins to soothe their own decrepit histories or criticizing it unfairly without any sense of responsibility, we are quickly being left with no friends and no options. The UN is riddled filthy with dictators and diplomats that only represent themselves. Our enemies can't even figure out a straight story on why they hate us. And our allies do as little as possible with mouse like voices so as to excuse themselves from any responsibility or blame.

The Korean leadership has proven enough to care only for themselves. Their people are of little consequence. With survival of power being their only goal in this world, launching a nuclear weapon into South Korean forces (where American troops have been camped out for decades) is absolutely in the realm of possibility. We are dealing with people who would rather see their people dead than to give them the power to usurp them. They have traveled too far down the road of pride to simply excuse themselves from the very weapon that has sustained them thus far.
 
donc said:
Where is the strawman?The only strawman I see is the two you built.

The first one enters with the first sentence in your post.(Wait wait wait.....we've been down this road with liberals before)the strawman in this example is the dreaded …LIBRAL.:shock:
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Perhaps this is because Liberals tend to be for wars, and vote for them, until they are soon against them. They will refuse to see any war through to completion by always looking for "withdrawal" dates, and will not support their leaders should the American people dare elect a Republican.

The Left has the image of being quite shallow and indecisive , and its a reputation well earned.
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EnigmaO01 said:
War is very messy and leads to more wars. If we hadn't divided Korea we wouldn't be dealing with this now.
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War is messy certainly, but things can become messier when left unattended.

In WWII, Germany and Japan weren't just defeated, as Germany was in WWI, they were absolutely devastated. Since then they have both been doing very well making fine automobiles and electronics, pursuits more likely to encourage good will then any ideas of international imperialism.

So the lesson is, if you are going to enter a war, do it quickly and intend to win absolutely convincingly, with no doubt remaining that further punishment will follow should there be any idea of continued warfare. Drop the big one on Kim Jong and his cronies and everyone else will snap to attention quite quickly. The world just has to get serious about this craziness.
 
the key to resolution of this dilemma is held by china

what is in china's best interest to do?

we can rule out reunification of the koreas as china would lose both its physical buffer and control of a state now in its orbit
we can rule out china tolerating an assault on NK
china does not want to have to assimilate a huge exodus of north koreans fleeing to become wards of the chinese state
neither is it in china's best interest to condone a family of crazy paranoids to precipitate all three of the above results, or a successor military junta which would bring more of the same

we can do little more to directly influence NK's actions. the key is china. the international community needs to take actions which will motivate china to place the government of NK on a short leash
but what would that be? china is a creditor nation and requires no infusion of loans. it can afford to buy political and commercial influence. its defensive military capabilities are adequate, so threat of war will not move it. and while imposing trade restrictions might appear to be an obvious target we need to recognize a few things. first, china could also respond in kind and limit imports to its expanding middle class market. second, china offers goods at a discounted price. who is going to be willing to forgo cheaper goods and instead substitute higher priced alternatives instead? look at the US and its reliance on foreign oil supplies which indirectly funds terrorist actions against our nation .... yet we refuse to cut the oil umbilical cord and develop alternatives - because we want the cheapest available commodity now
so, i don't recognize curtailing trade with china as being the way we incentivize china to bring NK to heel

don't anticipate any quick resolution to this problem. it is one only china can cure and only when china recognizes it is in its best interest to accomplish
 
justabubba said:
the key to resolution of this dilemma is held by china

what is in china's best interest to do?

we can rule out reunification of the koreas as china would lose both its physical buffer and control of a state now in its orbit
we can rule out china tolerating an assault on NK
china does not want to have to assimilate a huge exodus of north koreans fleeing to become wards of the chinese state
neither is it in china's best interest to condone a family of crazy paranoids to precipitate all three of the above results, or a successor military junta which would bring more of the same

we can do little more to directly influence NK's actions. the key is china. the international community needs to take actions which will motivate china to place the government of NK on a short leash
but what would that be? china is a creditor nation and requires no infusion of loans. it can afford to buy political and commercial influence. its defensive military capabilities are adequate, so threat of war will not move it. and while imposing trade restrictions might appear to be an obvious target we need to recognize a few things. first, china could also respond in kind and limit imports to its expanding middle class market. second, china offers goods at a discounted price. who is going to be willing to forgo cheaper goods and instead substitute higher priced alternatives instead? look at the US and its reliance on foreign oil supplies which indirectly funds terrorist actions against our nation .... yet we refuse to cut the oil umbilical cord and develop alternatives - because we want the cheapest available commodity now
so, i don't recognize curtailing trade with china as being the way we incentivize china to bring NK to heel

don't anticipate any quick resolution to this problem. it is one only china can cure and only when china recognizes it is in its best interest to accomplish
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No, the key, as always, is the United States. It all depends on how convincingly America wants to exert its power.

Ceding the power to China, and allowing them to take control of the situation, is not in anyones long term interest. This is a lonely decision for American leadership, because they will be criticized from within and without whatever they do. But it the real world they are the leader, not China.
 
Grant said:
No, the key, as always, is the United States. It all depends on how convincingly America wants to exert its power.

Ceding the power to China, and allowing them to take control of the situation, is not in anyones long term interest. This is a lonely decision for American leadership, because they will be criticized from within and without whatever they do. But it the real world they are the leader, not China.
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ok, let's run with your premise that the USA is the real key and can assert its power to effect change in NK
what exactly does the USA do to alter NK's ways?
i look forward to your response
 
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