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Obama acknowledges decline of US dominance

j-mac said:
What could we do to get back to the number one slot, or should we even bother?


j-mac
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I think we should realize that a nation consisting of 5% of the world's population is not going to dominate or control the other 95% for any sustainable period. It doesn't work well. Ask the Romans and the British.

To think that we shouldn't have to work with the other 95% on, say, the world's oceans and their resources, is just plain arrogant.
 
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the American government is not in any sort of trouble. The recession that started in 2007 and brought about public funds to bail corporations is not a sign of fault in American governance. The private sector is/was the rotten apple. Our government is a highly specialized colossus. America's private sector is in decline.
 
If America declines at least it will decline gracefully unlike the Romans. Who knows it may even be better for having multiple smaller superpowers controlling things instead of one large one.
 
“I love America more than any other country in this world, and, exactly for this reason, I insist on the right to criticize her perpetually.”- James Baldwin

Just because you criticize your country, doesn't mean you don't love it.
 
Arch Enemy said:
the American government is not in any sort of trouble. The recession that started in 2007 and brought about public funds to bail corporations is not a sign of fault in American governance. The private sector is/was the rotten apple. Our government is a highly specialized colossus. America's private sector is in decline.
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Hmmmmmmmmmm........ :strokes goatee:..
 
megaprogman said:
I guess my first question is how is admitting reality an apology?

Now to answer your questions.

1. I believe that America is growing more slowly while other, less developed, countries are catching up. This means the balance of power is shifting.
2. I would like the US to continue being the dominant power because I believe our society is much more moral than China's, but there is no denying their economic growth.
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Being dominant
And being moral

Are two very different things.

Looking into our history at some ways in which we *became dominant* I honestly don't believe it involved "being moral" at all.

History of the world proves that morality and governance does not a dominant country make. The power to wage wars, treat people unfairly and unjustly and to rape your country of it's resources is the only way most countries have become "dominant" over others - hence it being called "dominant"

And by this I mean: the Chinese (in their past), the Greeks, the Romans, the Egyptians, The Incas, Turks, Vikings, British, Spanish, Russians, Portuguese

All of these - dominant by means of extorting natural resources, but first a foremost: from abusing and misusing it citizenship to their aristocratic desires and whims.

Once you start actually caring about the 'little' people and the 'peasants' and the average folk in your country - it seems to be the undoing. Oh no!!
 
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Wiseone said:
There's nothing wrong with admitting the rise of powers, both militarily and economically, like Brazil, China, India, etc. Its simply reality, and thats all Obama is saying. J-Mac is simply assuming it means so much more because it feeds his self-righteousness, I mean the man is nothing if he can't complain about he's the only one who "gets it." I mean good Lord the guy is egotistical enough to remember to add his name to the bottom of every post.

Anyway just because there are other economies rising, which will compete with America, through and because of globalization, the United States is still leaps and bounds ahead of these countries in military and economic power.
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Boo Radley said:
it's poor national self esteem. It's a terrible thing. Just sad.
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Wiseone said:
So is smugness
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Boo Radley said:
True. And if calling something what it is is smugness, so be it.
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Hmmm...Tell us why this exchange between two fellow travelers is not a violation of the rules on several levels...Such as:

3. Flaming - "Originally, flame meant to carry forth in a passionate manner in the spirit of honorable debate. Flames most often involved the use of flowery language and flaming well was an art form. More recently flame has come to refer to any kind of derogatory comment no matter how witless or crude."[google] In a forum with sensitive topics such as this, derogatory flaming is bound to happen. Common sense will prevail, yet this is not an invitation to flame. e.g. "You stupid *****ing moron," is completely unacceptable and could lead to a suspension of posting privileges.

4. Don't be a jerk - This simply means what it sounds like.

or

18. Hate Messages
Hate messages delivered via threads, posts, signatures, or PM's are forbidden at Debate Politics. The Moderator Team defines a hate message as any willful wording intended to ridicule, debase, degrade, intimidate, or incite violence and/or prejudicial actions against a group of people based on their race, gender, ethnicity, national origin, religion, sexual orientation, or disability. Determined violations of this rule will be subject to incur an immediate revocation of membership.

www.debatepolitics.com/forum-rules/28594-forum-rules.html
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You two ought to cool it.

j-mac
 
It used to be that the sun never set on the British empire. Those days are gone, and now it is setting on the Empire which supplanted it.
 
Manc Skipper said:
It used to be that the sun never set on the British empire. Those days are gone, and now it is setting on the Empire which supplanted it.
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It ain't over yet my hopeful friend.


j-mac
 
j-mac said:
Because I believe we are exceptional. Show me a country that does as much for the world as we do.

j-mac
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I don't understand this right-wing obsession with American nationalism. It completely goes against what states rights advocates are trying to accomplish. I identify myself with my state. My state identifies best what my culture and heritage is, not the U.S. as a whole. The United States is just a union, or a federation, and the federal government should have a limited role as was intended by our founding fathers. Some conservatives claim they are states rights advocates but then wave around American flags and sing God bless America like its already 4th of July. I have never seen a supposed states rights activist with their state flag hanging outside of their house (except for Texans) or wearing shirts or hats with their state flag on it. J-mac, can you really identify yourself with people from New York or California? Are you proud to be associated with them? I can tell you that I certainly can't identify with the South Carolina culture or government, and to me, the only relationship between my state and South Carolina should be through the federal government's limited roles of regulating trade and for national defense when the United States is being attacked.

You talk about the U.S. as if you are talking about your favorite sports team. This isn't football or baseball, this is politics and government, and the U.S. wasn't supposed to be a country, our founding fathers only intended for it to be a union between small countries or what we call states. "The U.S. is the best and all the rest suck!" type of mentality should be kept on the sports field.
 
Ocean City said:
I don't understand this right-wing obsession with American nationalism. It completely goes against what states rights advocates are trying to accomplish. I identify myself with my state. My state identifies best what my culture and heritage is, not the U.S. as a whole. The United States is just a union, or a federation, and the federal government should have a limited role as was intended by our founding fathers. Some conservatives claim they are states rights advocates but then wave around American flags and sing God bless America like its already 4th of July. I have never seen a supposed states rights activist with their state flag hanging outside of their house (except for Texans) or wearing shirts or hats with their state flag on it. J-mac, can you really identify yourself with people from New York or California? Are you proud to be associated with them? I can tell you that I certainly can't identify with the South Carolina culture or government, and to me, the only relationship between my state and South Carolina should be through the federal government's limited roles of regulating trade and for national defense when the United States is being attacked.

You talk about the U.S. as if you are talking about your favorite sports team. This isn't football or baseball, this is politics and government, and the U.S. wasn't supposed to be a country, our founding fathers only intended for it to be a union between small countries or what we call states. "The U.S. is the best and all the rest suck!" type of mentality should be kept on the sports field.
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Well, we are a country, as well as a collection of states within that country. I have lived in at least 5 different states in my adult life, as well as another country, and traveled all 48 continental states. The one thing that flies in the face of what you say is that this collection of states considers itself one. Take a good look at your money friend. E Pluribus unum - From many, one. You don't like that?

j-mac
 
j-mac said:
You don't like that?

j-mac
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No. I believe states should be autonomous and that the federal governments role should be limited to national defense, trade regulation and protection of human rights in extreme cases. Taking 50 diverse states with different histories, ethnic makeups, ideologies, income levels and cultures, is the reason the country is such a divided mess today and the reason our congress is constantly in a gridlock. I have a state flag hanging outside of my house, not an American one. You can call that anti-American if you want, and that's fine. I don't like many of the politics, cultures and histories of several states in this union. When people think of Mississippi, I certainly don't want them to associate that place with me or my culture. And if we both wave the same flag then they will.
 
Ocean City said:
No. I believe states should be autonomous and that the federal governments role should be limited to national defense, trade regulation and protection of human rights in extreme cases. Taking 50 diverse states with different histories, ethnic makeups, ideologies, income levels and cultures, is the reason the country is such a divided mess today and the reason our congress is constantly in a gridlock. I have a state flag hanging outside of my house, not an American one. You can call that anti-American if you want, and that's fine. I don't like many of the politics, cultures and histories of several states in this union. When people think of Mississippi, I certainly don't want them to associate that place with me or my culture. And if we both wave the same flag then they will.
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Well, I would hope that unity would be part of our thinking as a country. That may not be true for all. But I sure wouldn't let the past sully what we have grown into, or accomplished as a nation to help others in the world. You want to be separate fine, go with that, I have the feeling you are in a tiny minority.

j-mac
 
j-mac said:
I have the feeling you are in a tiny minority.

j-mac
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Most conservatives want autonomous states with very limited federal government. This is not a "tiny minority" position whatsoever. The only difference with me is that I see the hypocrisy in that ideology while waving around the American flag ever day. I also see the hyprocrisy in waving around the American flag and claiming a potent national pride and then bashing other states like California and New York and Hawaii as "crazy" and "whacko" for their policies and cultures. You can't pick and choose what states are in the union. If you claim to love America you must love all states and all political ideologies that are American.
 
Ocean City said:
Most conservatives want autonomous states with very limited federal government. This is not a "tiny minority" position whatsoever. The only difference with me is that I see the hypocrisy in that ideology while waving around the American flag ever day. I also see the hyprocrisy in waving around the American flag and claiming a potent national pride and then bashing other states like California and New York and Hawaii as "crazy" and "whacko" for their policies and cultures. You can't pick and choose what states are in the union. If you claim to love America you must love all states and all political ideologies that are American.
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I think you mistake criticism for love or hate of anything.


j-mac
 
j-mac said:
I think you mistake criticism for love or hate of anything.


j-mac
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Regardless of my views, you seem more interested with maintaining an image than actually fixing the problem of America's declining economy. Obama didn't say anything that was untrue. So, according to you, he should lie, either based on reasons of pride or a belief that simply saying America's economy is as dominant as it was 20 years ago will somehow make it true. I'm more interested in Obama improving economic relationships with countries with rising economies and taking a realistic approach to our current situation. I know it hurts your pride to hear him say that, kind of like hearing the coach of your favorite football team finally admit they are no longer the powerhouse they used to be, but simply denying doesn't change the facts and what everybody else already knows.

As for whether we should try to get back in the "number 1 spot", again, we aren't talking about college football rankings so I just don't see why being in the number one spot really matters. As long as our national defense is strong enough to thwart off any invasions, and our economy is strong enough to keep a high standard of living, what the hell do I care about were our union is ranked amongst the rest of the world? You say you've been to a lot of countries, so then you must know, people in Japan, France, South Korea, the UK, Argentina, etc. are living just fine and could give a sh*t that they aren't ranked number one in UN reports. Blending sports and politics doesn't mix.
 
Ocean City said:
Regardless of my views, you seem more interested with maintaining an image than actually fixing the problem of America's declining economy.
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Fixing the problem of America's declining economy? Me? Myself? Dude, I am but a lowly truck driver trying to pay my bills and take care of my family, and have a little fun posting on a message board. If you think you are 'fixing' anything with your words then you really have issues far beyond what I can offer you...


Obama didn't say anything that was untrue. So, according to you, he should lie, either based on reasons of pride or a belief that simply saying America's economy is as dominant as it was 20 years ago will somehow make it true.
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There was a time when America believed in what its President said, and had some sense that he knew of, and trumpeted American exceptionalism. Those days seem sadly gone....Tell me If Obama is on this trip to drum up business for America, then he is a crappy salesman. Would you buy a car from a guy that starts out his sales pitch with, "It's ok"?


j-mac
 
j-mac said:
So here we go....Before this trip, I thought to myself, just another apology, America sucks tour stop. But this seems to go further now. Obama seems to relish in the idea of unpegging America as a superpower. So my question is how do you see it? Are we the dominant force in the world anymore? And should we be?


j-mac
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IT is to be expected given Obama's administration has spent two years trying to degrade America's standing in the world. The left has -at best-ambivalence towards AMerican Primacy and status. Many are even worse, they actively hate America being the most powerful and best nation in the world.
 
TurtleDude said:
IT is to be expected given Obama's administration has spent two years trying to degrade America's standing in the world. The left has -at best-ambivalence towards AMerican Primacy and status. Many are even worse, they actively hate America being the most powerful and best nation in the world.
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Insisting on American supremacy degrades America's standing in the world. That's an old narrative, and people don't buy it anymore. Hence the icy foreign reception to Bush. In today's politics, it's better to be the primus inter pares (first among equals) than the "God-King."

Not that it matters all that much. When you have a huge nuclear stockpile, advanced military, and economic connections, what you say or how you present yourself doesn't alter your influence much.
 
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TurtleDude said:
IT is to be expected given Obama's administration has spent two years trying to degrade America's standing in the world. The left has -at best-ambivalence towards AMerican Primacy and status. Many are even worse, they actively hate America being the most powerful and best nation in the world.
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Has Obama gotten booed yet in his travels?
 
winston53660 said:
Has Obama gotten booed yet in his travels?
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LOL-going to a foreign country and telling them that your country isn't any better than theirs is less likely to get you booed compared to telling them that America is the best.
 
TurtleDude said:
LOL-going to a foreign country and telling them that your country isn't any better than theirs is less likely to get you booed compared to telling them that America is the best.
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Primus inter pares. Other nations have gone through too much turbulence and made too many economic, political, and cultural advancements to feel as though they owe deference to the United States. Particularly since many of them credit the United States and other Western nations as the instigators of that turbulence.
 
j-mac said:
I am but a lowly truck driver trying to pay my bills and take care of my family
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Well, from how you describe yourself there is certainly nothing exceptional about you, but you seem happy with yourself and are probably able to provide for your family. Why isn't that normalcy acceptable for your country? Why are so concerned about America being the best or exceptional as compared to everyone else in the world? And there are a slew of other countries I can think of who's history and influence in the world certainly places them in an exceptional category. Italy, Greece, China (which is the oldest continuos civilization in the world), German, Japan, England and especially Israel are all quite exceptional. If there are many other countries with exceptional histories and influence on the world, is the U.S. really exceptional?
 
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