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Key Tax Breaks at Risk as Panel Looks at Cuts

liblady said:
it can't be both, you're right. that's why i put "tax" in quotes.......it's not a tax. it's a fine.
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Is it a criminal or civil fine?
 
liblady said:
i have no idea, nor is it relevant.
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I have -no doubt- that you have -no- idea ...

The relevance here is obvious.

If it is a criminal fine, it can only be assessed pursuant to a guilty conviction, after a trial.
If it is a civil fine, it can only be assessed for monetary damages caused to the state in an effort to recoup the costs of those damages.
 
Goobieman said:
I have -no doubt- that you have -no- idea ...

The relevance here is obvious.

If it is a criminal fine, it can only be assessed pursuant to a guilty conviction, after a trial.
If it is a civil fine, it can only be assessed for monetary damages caused to the state in an effort to recoup the costs of those damages.
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or wrongdoing......and the fine can also be assessed by the federal government. so again, what is your point?
 
liblady said:
or wrongdoing...
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....that caiuses damages to the state, in an effort to recoup the costs of those damages.

Again, what is your point?
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Well...
As you can only assess civil penalties pursuant to costs borne by the state in an effort to recoup those costs, you cannot assess a civil penalty upon someone who has not caused the state to incur any cost.

and the fine can also be assessed by the federal government.
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When I say 'the state', I'm not referring to OH, et al.
 
Whovian said:
If it's assessed on your taxes, it's a tax.

I notice you ignored the vast majority of the new taxes listed. I anxiously await your continued attempts to spin those as "not 'really' taxes'.

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cricket... cricket... cricket...
 
Goobieman said:
....that caiuses damages to the state, in an effort to recoup the costs of those damages.


Well...
As you can only assess civil penalties pursuant to costs borne by the state in an effort to recoup those costs, you cannot assess a civil penalty upon someone who has not caused the state to incur any cost.


When I say 'the state', I'm not referring to OH, et al.
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well, it's exactly what they are doing. if you run a red light, you are assessed a fine. a civil fine, and yet, you caused no damages. how does that square with your belief?
 
Whovian said:
cricket... cricket... cricket...
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no, just not interested in going point by point. he's not raising taxes, and you guys can't stand that fact, so you nitpick about a tanning bed tax. i don't really see anything in there that actually raises taxes on those who make less than 250k.....which ones does, btw? other than a tax which is completely OPTIONAL?
 
liblady said:
well, it's exactly what they are doing.
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Is it?
What about the people that have cost the state nothing? On what basis can you fine them?

If you run a red light, you are assessed a fine. A civil fine
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Traffic violations are criminal, not civil fines - that why you have to go co court for them and where guilt/innocence is determined, after which a fine may be levied.
 
Goobieman said:
Is it?
What about the people that have cost the state nothing? On what basis can you fine them?


Traffic violations are criminal, not civil fines - that why you have to go co court for them and where guilt/innocence is determined, after which a fine may be levied.
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no, it is civil. look it up.

View more Business & Finance videos

Law Dictionary: Civil Penalties
Top Home > Library > Law & Legal Issues > Law DictionaryGenerally, fines or money damages imposed by a regulatory scheme. See, e.g., 15 U.S.C. §45(1). Civil penalties however, have been distinguished from civil remedies in that civil penalties are imposed as a punishment for certain activity and have the character of a criminal sanction, while civil remedies seek to redress wrongs or compensate for injuries suffered.
 
liblady said:
no, just not interested in going point by point. he's not raising taxes, and you guys can't stand that fact, so you nitpick about a tanning bed tax. i don't really see anything in there that actually raises taxes on those who make less than 250k.....which ones does, btw? other than a tax which is completely OPTIONAL?
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Translation: I reject your reality, and substitute my own.
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Every item on that list with an asterisk affects people who make less than $250K. The tanning bed tax is just one item on the list. You don't want to go point by point, because you CAN'T go point by point. You are incapable of lookign at a list of new taxes and calling them what they are, because you are simply too partisan to admit when you are wrong and your Obamessiah lied.

Your spin is slowing... you must be getting tired.
 
liblady said:
no, it is civil. look it up.
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If you are on trial and have to plead guilt/innocence, then it is a criminal event.

I ask again:
What about the people that have cost the state nothing?
On what basis can you fine them?
 
Whovian said:
You are incapable of lookign at a list of new taxes and calling them what they are, because you are simply too partisan to admit when you are wrong and your Obamessiah lied.
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Aint THAT the truth...
 
Whovian said:
Every item on that list with an asterisk affects people who make less than $250K. The tanning bed tax is just one item on the list. You don't want to go point by point, because you CAN'T go point by point. You are incapable of lookign at a list of new taxes and calling them what they are, because you are simply too partisan to admit when you are wrong and your Obamessiah lied.

Your spin is slowing... you must be getting tired.
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some are fines, others are not taxes at all. the ban on using your hsa to purchase aspirin isn't a tax. the tax on brand name pharma is optional. double penalty for non qualified distributions is not a tax.

the excise tax on very generous insurance plans is only on that part of the plan which exceeds 24k for families and 8900 for individuals, and is phased in over a great period of time. i will also argue that this probably won't affect people with incomes lower than 250k.

Does Not Affect Most People and Plans. The large majority of health insurance plans would be unaffected by the excise tax, since the dollar thresholds far exceed the value of the typical plan. In 2013, more than 91 percent of family plans will have premiums below $24,000, the threshold for the excise tax.[4] A plan costing $24,000 in 2013 (the equivalent of about $20,800 in 2010) would be about 40 percent more generous than the plan that most Members of Congress have.[5] In later years, as health insurance costs rise, more plans would be faced with exceeding the tax thresholds, but only to a small degree. Since the tax would apply only to costs above the thresholds, its effect on people with plans just over the thresholds would be minimal.Even by 2019, well below 8 percent of total premiums for employer-sponsored insurance would be affected by the excise tax. [6]
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liblady said:
some are fines, others are not taxes at all...

the excise tax on very generous insurance plans is only on that part of the plan which exceeds 24k for families and 8900 for individuals, and is phased in over a great period of time. i will also argue that this probably won't affect people with incomes lower than 250k.
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So, 'some' are fines 'others' are not taxes, and the rest are what, exactly then???

You'd argue poorly then.
 
Goobieman said:
If you are on trial and have to plead guilt/innocence, then it is a criminal event.

I ask again:
What about the people that have cost the state nothing?
On what basis can you fine them?
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and i'm telling you...traffic fines are CIVIL. admit it. and please look at the definition i provided. traffic court is civil. how does parking in a no parking zone cost the state money? and yet, they pay a civil fine. how about that? your definiton is not complete, but i think you KNOW that. i'm done.

17th Judicial Circuit Uniform Civil Traffic Court Procedures
TO: All County Court Judges, Traffic Hearing Officers, Supervisors of the

Clerk of the Court Traffic Division all locations

FROM: Chief Judge Dale Ross, Honorable Jay Spechler, Honorable Peter B.

Skolnik and Brenda Di Ioia, Chief Administrative Traffic Hearing Officer,

Carol Lee Ortman, Court AdministratorDATE: November 1, 2005

(Revised/Amended April 2004, July 2001, February 1999,

Initiated April 27, 1998)

RE: Civil Traffic Infraction & Municipal Parking Proceedings




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Whovian said:
So, 'some' are fines 'others' are not taxes, and the rest are what, exactly then???

You'd argue poorly then.
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i'm finished here......you clearly don't know how the healthcare law will work. i'm not giving any more examples.

btw...how many families do you know who have insurance plans, paid by their company in their entirety, that cost 24K? hmm......?
 
Goobieman said:
I see that your denial of reality runs deep.
But then, I knew that.
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and so, i posted a civil traffic court schedule, and you deny that traffic court is civil. you're pretty damend funny.......and completely wrong.

The Gilbert Municipal Court has jurisdiction over civil traffic violations committed within the Town of Gilbert. Most civil violations carry a possible maximum fine of $250.00. No jail time or probation can be imposed for a civil traffic violation.
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here's a quick google...about non existent civil traffic courts....

Municipal Court - Civil Traffic Case Informationphoto, court room The Gilbert Municipal Court has jurisdiction over civil traffic violations committed within the Town of Gilbert. Most civil violations ...
www.ci.gilbert.az.us/court/traffic.cfm - Similar
The Philadelphia Courts - First Judicial District of PennsylvaniaWednesday, October 20, 2010. Court of Common Pleas, Trial Division - Civil ... Traffic Court Monday to Friday 8:30 AM to 7:30 PM. Court Holiday Schedule ...
courts.phila.gov/ - Cached - Similar
County Court - Welcome MessageRelevant record information on all civil, criminal, general sessions and traffic cases can now be accessed online by clicking on the 'Search County Court ...
www.denvergov.org/CountyCourt/ - Cached
Civil Traffic Court Information | City of Tucson WebCivil traffic complaint citations issued by the Tucson Police Department are handled in Tucson City Court. Listed below are options available to resolve ...
cms3.tucsonaz.gov/courts/civil-traffic-court-information - Cached
Justice Courts - Civil Traffic ViolationsJan 5, 2010 ... Justice Courts >Courts And Sections >Traffic Violations Civil Traffic Violations If you have received a civil traffic citation, ...
www.superiorcourt.maricopa.gov/just.../trafficviolations/civiltrafficviolations.asp - Cached - Similar
Superior Court of California, County of San Francisco : Home Page(415) 551-4000. TTY/TDD: (415) 551-4001. Civil Clerk's hours 8 a.m. to 4 p.m. (Monday - Friday) ... Pay traffic or infractions online? ...
www.sfsuperiorcourt.org/ - Cached - Similar
CLERK OF STATE COURTThe State Court of Cobb County handles Civil Law Suits, Garnishments, Eviction Proceedings, Personal Property Foreclosures, Traffic Violations and ...
statecourtclerk.cobbcountyga.gov/ - Cached - Similar
Superior Court of California - County of San DiegoPay your Court Ordered Fine or Traffic Ticket (Citation); request an Extension of Court Date or ... Search for mediators on the court Civil Mediation Panel. ...
 
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liblady said:
i'm finished here......you clearly don't know how the healthcare law will work. i'm not giving any more examples.

btw...how many families do you know who have insurance plans, paid by their company in their entirety, that cost 24K? hmm......?
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You were finished before you started... and failed half way through.

WTF does the way the health care law itself works, have to do with taxes that will be assessed because of it?

You also conveniently ignore the fact that the health care law is not the ONLY source of new taxes under this administration. You ignored...

SCHIP*
Public*Law*111‐3*
Tobacco tax increase and expanded enforcement authority* (new tax, affects people making less than $250K)

“Stimulus”*
Public Law 111‐5
Repeal guidance allowing certain taxpayers to claim losses of an acquired corporation

UI Benefits, NOL
Relief & Homebuyer Credit
Public Law 111‐92
Federal Unemployment surtaxes extended through June 2011 *
Delay of rules to reduce the double taxation of worldwide American employers until 2018 (worldwide interest allocation)*

HIRE Act
Public Law 111‐147
Delay of rules to reduce the double taxation of worldwide American employers until 2021 (worldwide interest allocation)*
 
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