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Merkel says German multiculturalism has failed

Look at that photo again, for crying out loud! Would you wear such garb if you didn't have too??

Women are being beaten on the streets, arrested in some areas, if they don't wear it.

What sick minds there are out there!!

Are we speaking two different languages here? Are you not reading what I'm saying or something?

It does not matter who would "want" to wear a burka or not. The fact of the matter is, it's not the place of government to be telling these people what they can and cannot wear in public. Does that not compute with you? Telling a woman she is not allowed to wear a burka is just as bad as telling her that she MUST wear one. Either way, freedom is usurped.
 
01/26/2009
Special: Muslims in Europe
Immigration
Survey Shows Alarming Lack of Integration in Germany

A third of all children born in Germany belong to immigrant families, but many immigrants are poorly integrated into German society. A new study has shown that Turks in particular are faring poorly in Germany.

A new study has delivered a damning verdict on the integration of Germany's immigrants, concluding that an alarmingly high percentage of them live in a parallel world with poor prospects of a decent education and career advancement.

But many Turks who came to Germany as guest workers decades ago didn't want to become part of German society, they wanted to earn money there and return home after a few years. That didn't happen, though. The Turks stayed on, but it seems that their original attitude hasn't changed. They formed ghettos and didn't establish much contact with Germans, and all that made it harder for their children to find a place in German society.

According to one recent survey, two-thirds of immigrant children still can't read adequately at the end of their fourth year in school. The situation is especially bad in big cities with high proportions of immigrants such as Berlin, Hamburg and Bremen.

...it is tempting to wonder how much of such an attitude results from the Turkish tendency to congregate in insular neighborhoods in Germany's big cities.

Author Serap Cileli, herself the victim of a forced marriage, says: "Faith plays a major role in the failed integration of Turks." For more than 10 years she has been helping Muslim women who have become victims of domestic violence. "Every day I see the suffering of Muslim girls and women who never get a chance in their conservative Muslim world to take part in German life," she says.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,603588,00.html
You do not need government to set up integration; as a child of immigrants, mine didn't require a government program, school, hand holding to have them integrate... they did it themselves, including learning the language; which wasn't easy. In fact, my Mother integrated into new societies thrice; as a result she speaks four languages fluently. These failed integrators have had generations, and folks like you (especially when they find themselves elected to places like the Bundestag) make it worse by making excuses for them.

You keep saying "integrate!!!" as if that is the solution to the problem. It's not. You have to understand that subsequent generations of immigrants, the ones who are born and raised in Germany, are quite well integrated.
Little Istanbul... aka Berlin is not what you would call integrated. Did you happen to see the soccer game between Germany and Turkey, where the Germans were foreigners in their own state capital? That's a pretty accurate snapshot.

They speak without an accent, they are immersed in the local culture.
ROTFLOL... see Der Spiegel above and... Try again.

Yet that is STILL not enough for them to be considered equalsto "real Germans".
This debate began with Sarrazin, followed up by Seehofer, with Merkel recently at bat has come about because these folks haven't integrated.

This is not specific to Germany. It happens all over Western Europe to some degree or another. Even in France or Switzerland, where immigrants are pretty much forced to integrate and learn the language if they want to be able to function in society at all, they're still considered "étrangers", "Ausländer", guest workers the natives put up with because they do the jobs no one else wants to do.
I know it's not specific to Germany; it runs from Stockholm to Sicily, Amsterdam to Klagenfurt. If you want to stay, if you want to shake the handle... then integrate. As stated before; if someone of color has problems... after integrating... are you saying these folks are racists?

Immigrants who make the effort to fully integrate into their new country are STILL not accepted. It's still not good enough. Do you have any idea how damaging that is?
You can integrate and not be a citizen, and fight for citizenship. What is damaging to their cause is not integrating; it causes resentment among the homegrown nationals.

Many immigrants do their part and assimilate completely. It's time governments start doing their part too and help them with the integration process and simplify the path to citizenship as much as possible, instead of making it harder or next to impossible as is still too often the case.
You site citizenship as a necessity to integration; I don't see it that way. And I don't believe citizenship should be easy.

It works both ways. There has to be some give and take or it's never going to work.
No, no, no. There need be assimilation, integration... first. Then thoughts about citizenship. The government need not give. First assimilate, and then we'll talk. Just like securing the borders in the US; first secure the borders, then we'll talk about what to do with the illegal mass that remains.

We'll end up with frustrated and dejected youths, just like the young French Muslims, who are made to feel like second class citizens in their own freaking country.
The French Muslims. How well have they integrated? They've had a half century... how well have they integrated? Mind you... the government tried with their Super Ghetto Projects, just as they did in the US... and all started well... but a short number of years later, government's do-gooder plan evolved into hell holes. In the US we tear them down, illustrating what a failure it is for government to stick their noses in such business.

The solution is easy. Integrate... first.

.
 
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I'm sure Emily Pankhurst is rolling in her grave. I wonder what her reaction would be to the fact in 21st Century Men are trying to tell Women what is acceptable or not to wear which is exactly what you are trying to do.

:roll:

Don't bring up feminist argument. You'll lose.
Oh my... you're telling me that Muslim women are free birds?
Really?

Sorry, that rock don't fly.

TILT/.

.
 
You do not need government to set up integration; as a child of immigrants, mine didn't require a government program, school, hand holding to have them integrate... they did it themselves, including learning the language; which wasn't easy. In fact, my Mother integrated into new societies thrice; as a result she speaks four languages fluently. These failed integrators have had generations, and folks like you (especially when they find themselves elected to places like the Bundestag) make it worse by making excuses for them.

Little Istanbul... aka Berlin is not what you would call integrated. Did you happen to see the soccer game between Germany and Turkey, where the Germans were foreigners in their own state capital? That's a pretty accurate snapshot.

ROTFLOL... see Der Spiegel above and... Try again.

This debate began with Sarrazin, followed up by Seehofer, with Merkel recently at bat has come about because these folks haven't integrated.

I know it's not specific to Germany; it runs from Stockholm to Sicily, Amsterdam to Klagenfurt. If you want to stay, if you want to shake the handle... then integrate. As stated before; if someone of color has problems... after integrating... are you saying these folks are racists?

You can integrate and not be a citizen, and fight for citizenship. What is damaging to their cause is not integrating; it causes resentment among the homegrown nationals.

You site citizenship as a necessity to integration; I don't see it that way. And I don't believe citizenship should be easy.

No, no, no. There need be assimilation, integration... first. Then thoughts about citizenship. The government need not give. First assimilate, and then we'll talk. Just like securing the borders in the US; first secure the borders, then we'll talk about what to do with the illegal mass that remains.

The French Muslims. How well have they integrated? They've had a half century... how well have they integrated? Mind you... the government tried with their Super Ghetto Projects, just as they did in the US... and all started well... but a short number of years later, government's do-gooder plan evolved into hell holes. In the US we tear them down, illustrating what a failure it is for government to stick their noses in such business.

The solution is easy. Integrate... first.

.

I'm not disputing the findings in the Spiegel article. In fact, I pretty much agree that there is a huge problem with the Turkish community in Germany. I AGREE with Merkel. I've said as much earlier in the thread.

My argument with you is that you seem to think that integration is the only solution and that it'll work as well in Europe as it does in North America. I'm not here to discuss the people who deliberately live in that parallel society. I already know they exist and they are part of the problem. I'm here to tell you that even those who do everything right DON'T get accepted anyway. And it's not about color, for chrissake. Don't you understand this happens to all foreigners, no matter where they come from? It happened to the first wave if Italian and Spanish immigrants. It happens to Canadians, like me. It happens to Americans, French, British. You should see how the German immigrants are treated in Swiss Germany.

As for citizenship, I disagree with you. It should definitely be made easier, especially for those born in the country. Integration is much easier in the US because, once you're a permanent resident, a Green Card holder, the path to citizenship isn't very long or complicated. What's complicated is actually getting into the country legally, but that's another debate. The other thing the US offers that Germany doesn't, is automatic citizenship to those born on your soil. You may think it's insignificant, but I'll tell you one thing I know from recent personal experience. I recently obtained Swiss citizenship after nearly 20 years in this country. I feel different. My commitment to this country got stronger and I feel like I'm no longer an outsider. When I talk about Switzerland, I no longer say "they" like I used to. I say "we". Citizenship matters more than you think. I do agree that it shouldn't be given lightly, but when we're talking about people who were born, raised and educated in the country, if they don't deserve it, then who does?
 
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I'm not disputing the findings in the Spiegel article. In fact, I pretty much agree that there is a huge problem with the Turkish community in Germany. I AGREE with Merkel. I've said as much earlier in the thread.

My argument with you is that you seem to think that integration is the only solution and that it'll work as well in Europe as it does in North America. I'm not here to discuss the people who deliberately live in that parallel society. I already know they exist and they are part of the problem. I'm here to tell you that even those who do everything right DON'T get accepted anyway. And it's not about color, for chrissake. Don't you understand this happens to all foreigners, no matter where they come from? It happened to the first wave if Italian and Spanish immigrants. It happens to Canadians, like me. It happens to Americans, French, British. You should see how the German immigrants are treated in Swiss Germany.
LOL... I know how the Germans are treated in Switzerland; like the Poles in Germany. And... the second generation will have it easier... if they integrate.

A good buddy of mine, ein Bayer has an Arzt Praxis in der Schweiz, and he jokes about the treatment of Germans there.

As for citizenship, I disagree with you. It should definitely be made easier, especially for those born in the country. Integration is much easier in the US because, once you're a permanent resident, a Green Card holder, the path to citizenship isn't very long or complicated. What's complicated is actually getting into the country legally, but that's another debate. The other thing the US offers that Germany doesn't, is automatic citizenship to those born on your soil. You may think it's insignificant, but I'll tell you one thing I know from recent personal experience. I recently obtained Swiss citizenship after nearly 20 years in this country. I feel different. My commitment to this country got stronger and I feel like I'm no longer an outsider. When I talk about Switzerland, I no longer say "they" like I used to. I say "we". Citizenship matters more than you think. I do agree that it shouldn't be given lightly, but when we're talking about people who were born, raised and educated in the country, if they don't deserve it, then who does?

1. I never said it was easy in Europe to get citizenship; I don't think it should be easy.
2. Allowing children of illegals to become citizens was a huge mistake in the US.
3. Citizenship is nice if you want it and get it, but no reason to hinder integration.
4. People born to legal residents of the country should be permitted citizenship; that's one thing we agree on, but again... lacking citizenship should not hinder integration. What better way to show you should be a citizen than being integrated?

Jetzt muss ich ein Kleine Häppchen machen. Guten!

.
 
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In Saudi Arabia yes it is compulsory.

Not in the West so many who do wear it choose to wear a burqa

Really? How do you know? Do you know there are not pressures from the spouse? The family? The religious leaders?

The fact is you don't.
 
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