O'Donnell said China plotting to take over US

Fiddytree said:

Perhaps, but I'm also thinking about what the Chinese would like to do, at least as far as what our specialists are looking at. China has never really been much for truly expansive behavior, save a few instances (Taiwan, for example). They have mostly been interested in their own borders.

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From 2005....The Epoch Times | War Is Not Far from Us and Is the Midwife of the Chinese Century

From the perspective of history, the reason that China is faced with the issue of living space is because Western countries have developed ahead of Eastern countries. Western countries established colonies all around the world, therefore giving themselves an advantage on the issue of living space. To solve this problem, we must lead the Chinese people outside of China, so that they could develop outside of China.

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ric27 said:

You're thinking like a western capitalist. Yes, they may share some of our values and motivations, but it is a trap to think that because we wouldn't go to war (with our mode of thinking and motivations) in their situation, they won't either.

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Like us, they wouldn't get involved in major engagements, but they could engage in minor political wars, just like we've been doing the last nine years.

ricksfolly

ric27 said:

Actually that's where there have been big changes in the last fifteen years. Pre-1989 their youth were very moderate and led the reform movement, like most western countries. After the massacre, the clampdown and the "re-education" of the youth, it's a whole other story. Look back at 2001 with the P-3 incident. The biggest protests were from students! They've effectively brainwashed the youth to fear imperialism and American pacific hegemony. It's not so much about Red Book-carrying communism

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That has nothing to do with what I said. I never said that China wasn't authoritarian. I simply said that they are, by no conventional definition, communist. There are still many government owned enterprises and restrictions on trade, but they are far more capitalist than before 1976. Their economy is largely based on our success. Again, what do they have to gain by attacking us?

ric27 said:

You're thinking like a western capitalist. Yes, they may share some of our values and motivations, but it is a trap to think that because we wouldn't go to war (with our mode of thinking and motivations) in their situation, they won't either.

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So, basically you think the Chinese are war mongers who will start fights and take heavy losses just for ****s and giggles.

DrunkenAsparagus said:

That has nothing to do with what I said. I never said that China wasn't authoritarian. I simply said that they are, by no conventional definition, communist. There are still many government owned enterprises and restrictions on trade, but they are far more capitalist than before 1976. Their economy is largely based on our success.

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It is my sincere hope that someday the PRC will become a democracy, but while the Communist Party in China remains in power, I think that Mao's old axiom that power flows from the barrel of a gun will continue to hold true. As long as the party leaders and the military are in agreement and control, the people have no chance of becoming free, and the US must prepare for war in that theatre.

Again, what do they have to gain by attacking us?

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The worry is the Chinese Communist Party trying to stay in power, and using everything in it's arsenal to do so. They may try to trade for their natural resources, but as these resources get more scarce, coupled with huge demand at home, invading another country to secure these resources may seem like a viable option in order to keep a hungry populace satisfied. As a historian, you are aware of wars in the past fought for scarce resources. Just about every war has been fought over commodities, and the desire to secure them. The Chinese have a huge population, which is getting larger, and the male/female ratio is skewed due to the one child policy and most families desiring male children. When these men cannot find jobs or wives, they will become frustrated, and the government will have to do something with them. Women are commodities in most parts of the world outside of the West, as is land and foodstuffs. Promising the young male his hearts desire in return for military service is an age old recruiting tactic, which may seem quaint and outdated to our society, but not so much to a less sophisticated audience....Remember Adolf Hitler prating about "Lebensraum" to his people prior to WW II.

I'm not saying that these will come to fruition in the next 5-10 years, but they will eventually, as they learn Western manufacturing techniques and technologies. In the mean time, they are doing everything in their power to neutralize the only power in the area that has even a ghost of a chance of stopping whatever their ultimate aims are, namely the US. Making alliances with our enemies, getting a presence in our backyard with the means to interdict our movement, possibly infiltrating a fifth column inside the country through legal and illegal immigration. These are all possibilities. This scenario doesn't seem implausible to me

ricksfolly said:

Like us, they wouldn't get involved in major engagements, but they could engage in minor political wars, just like we've been doing the last nine years.

ricksfolly

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If by nine you mean sixty, I agree.

creativedreams said:

Anyone with an I.Q. over 150 can see the distinct pattern on what is to come....China clearly is at great odds with the U.S. and trading has no meaning in this world once war starts.

China (with Russia, etc) is clearly on a path to stop the U.S. influence on all of mankind.

A Russian General even said there needs to be a global war to stop the U.S. influence on all of mankind.

China is the new sleeping giant that the U.S. is awakening....

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Creative Dreams, do you realize that in addition to fluoridating water, there are studies underway to fluoridate salt, flour, fruit juices, soup, sugar, milk, and ice cream. Children's ice cream!!

You know when fluoridation first began? 1946. How does that coincide with your post-war Commie conspiracy, huh? It's incredibly obvious, isn't it? A foreign substance is introduced into our precious bodily fluids without the knowledge of the individual. Certainly without any choice. That's the way your hard-core Commie works.

I'll tell you, because I know you'll understand, that I first became aware of this during the physical act of love. I experienced a profound sense of fatigue... a feeling of emptiness followed. Luckily I was able to interpret these feelings correctly.

Loss of essence.

I can assure you it has not recurred. Women sense my power and they seek the life essence. I do not avoid women. But I do deny them my essence.

ric27 said:

It is my sincere hope that someday the PRC will become a democracy, but while the Communist Party in China remains in power, I think that Mao's old axiom that power flows from the barrel of a gun will continue to hold true. As long as the party leaders and the military are in agreement and control, the people have no chance of becoming free, and the US must prepare for war in that theatre.




The worry is the Chinese Communist Party trying to stay in power, and using everything in it's arsenal to do so. They may try to trade for their natural resources, but as these resources get more scarce, coupled with huge demand at home, invading another country to secure these resources may seem like a viable option in order to keep a hungry populace satisfied. As a historian, you are aware of wars in the past fought for scarce resources. Just about every war has been fought over commodities, and the desire to secure them. The Chinese have a huge population, which is getting larger, and the male/female ratio is skewed due to the one child policy and most families desiring male children. When these men cannot find jobs or wives, they will become frustrated, and the government will have to do something with them. Women are commodities in most parts of the world outside of the West, as is land and foodstuffs. Promising the young male his hearts desire in return for military service is an age old recruiting tactic, which may seem quaint and outdated to our society, but not so much to a less sophisticated audience....Remember Adolf Hitler prating about "Lebensraum" to his people prior to WW II.

I'm not saying that these will come to fruition in the next 5-10 years, but they will eventually, as they learn Western manufacturing techniques and technologies. In the mean time, they are doing everything in their power to neutralize the only power in the area that has even a ghost of a chance of stopping whatever their ultimate aims are, namely the US. Making alliances with our enemies, getting a presence in our backyard with the means to interdict our movement, possibly infiltrating a fifth column inside the country through legal and illegal immigration. These are all possibilities. This scenario doesn't seem implausible to me

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By god you mean they might like invade Iraq to gain access to Iraqi and control mid east oil, the devils

Lord Tammerlain said:

By god you mean they might like invade Iraq to gain access to Iraqi and control mid east oil, the devils

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We go to war, it'll be over resources.

The last world war in the pacific was also fought, lost and won over resources. Japan's inability to control and effectively use the strategic resources is one of the major reasons it eventually lost the war (besides ignoring and then loosing Yamamoto).

That said....China isn't going: We're going to launch nukes at the United States, it's saying "If the US arms their missiles and points them at us, we'll point and fire- hopefully faster"....

Is the person who kicks the **** out of someone threatening him with a gun the aggressor? No, we understand he just reacted to the stimuli. Saying "If you're going to point that gun at me I'm going to shoot you" is hardly a threat, it's a statement of fact.

ric27 said:

It is my sincere hope that someday the PRC will become a democracy, but while the Communist Party in China remains in power, I think that Mao's old axiom that power flows from the barrel of a gun will continue to hold true. As long as the party leaders and the military are in agreement and control, the people have no chance of becoming free, and the US must prepare for war in that theatre.

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I never said that China's government was a democracy. You can be authoritarian and non-communist. It doesn't matter what ideology they follow, the PRC Communist Party has everything to lose from war with the US and nothing to gain that they couldn't get far more easily.

ric27 said:

The worry is the Chinese Communist Party trying to stay in power, and using everything in it's arsenal to do so. They may try to trade for their natural resources, but as these resources get more scarce, coupled with huge demand at home, invading another country to secure these resources may seem like a viable option in order to keep a hungry populace satisfied. As a historian, you are aware of wars in the past fought for scarce resources. Just about every war has been fought over commodities, and the desire to secure them. The Chinese have a huge population, which is getting larger, and the male/female ratio is skewed due to the one child policy and most families desiring male children. When these men cannot find jobs or wives, they will become frustrated, and the government will have to do something with them. Women are commodities in most parts of the world outside of the West, as is land and foodstuffs. Promising the young male his hearts desire in return for military service is an age old recruiting tactic, which may seem quaint and outdated to our society, but not so much to a less sophisticated audience....Remember Adolf Hitler prating about "Lebensraum" to his people prior to WW II.

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I can see that you've been frozen for the past couple decades. Welcome to globalization, buddy. China can get most of what it needs through trade.

ric27 said:

I'm not saying that these will come to fruition in the next 5-10 years, but they will eventually, as they learn Western manufacturing techniques and technologies. In the mean time, they are doing everything in their power to neutralize the only power in the area that has even a ghost of a chance of stopping whatever their ultimate aims are, namely the US. Making alliances with our enemies, getting a presence in our backyard with the means to interdict our movement, possibly infiltrating a fifth column inside the country through legal and illegal immigration.
These are all possibilities. This scenario doesn't seem implausible to me

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You have 0 evidence to back any of this up. Only, extremely flimsy what-ifs. If you took a simple look at current economic, geopolitical, and social trends instead of Cold War propaganda, you'd see how silly this theory is. The many reasons why China wouldn't want to go to war with us has been stated many, many times.

DrunkenAsparagus said:

You have 0 evidence to back any of this up. Only, extremely flimsy what-ifs. If you took a simple look at current economic, geopolitical, and social trends instead of Cold War propaganda, you'd see how silly this theory is. The many reasons why China wouldn't want to go to war with us has been stated many, many times.

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Mister Drunken - History is interesting in many ways. You can track parallels and it gives you warning, that the next parallel has a likelihood of occurring, but it isn't a guarantee. Sometimes people actually do pay attention and they decide they don't want to do that again. Again, check history. It truly is a crystal ball of sorts....

Great civilizations rise and fall like clockwork, about every 400 years. Rome, China, Japan, the traditional European powers. You can set your calendar by it. Whites have been in America since the 16th century. We're due.

The US had a great run, but America today is what Britain was at the beginning of the 20th century. We're in the process of a painful backward slide into international irrelevancy. Enjoy the Empire days while they last, I say. Because the 21st century will belong to China.

ric27 said:

Mister Drunken - History is interesting in many ways. You can track parallels and it gives you warning, that the next parallel has a likelihood of occurring, but it isn't a guarantee. Sometimes people actually do pay attention and they decide they don't want to do that again. Again, check history. It truly is a crystal ball of sorts....

Great civilizations rise and fall like clockwork, about every 400 years. Rome, China, Japan, the traditional European powers. You can set your calendar by it. Whites have been in America since the 16th century. We're due.

The US had a great run, but America today is what Britain was at the beginning of the 20th century. We're in the process of a painful backward slide into international irrelevancy. Enjoy the Empire days while they last, I say. Because the 21st century will belong to China.

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Yes and nicely said...

What is sad is the fact that when China gets on top it will likely last far more than the 400yrs...China will likely be the last superpower....basic math shows this.....

ric27 said:

Mister Drunken - History is interesting in many ways. You can track parallels and it gives you warning, that the next parallel has a likelihood of occurring, but it isn't a guarantee. Sometimes people actually do pay attention and they decide they don't want to do that again. Again, check history. It truly is a crystal ball of sorts....

Great civilizations rise and fall like clockwork, about every 400 years. Rome, China, Japan, the traditional European powers. You can set your calendar by it. Whites have been in America since the 16th century. We're due.

The US had a great run, but America today is what Britain was at the beginning of the 20th century. We're in the process of a painful backward slide into international irrelevancy. Enjoy the Empire days while they last, I say. Because the 21st century will belong to China.

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That's fantastic. What does that have to do with China going to war with us?

DrunkenAsparagus said:

That's fantastic. What does that have to do with China going to war with us?

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Trying desperately to save face with nonsense since he got proven wrong by myself and dozens of others about his rediculous and fearful assertion that the evil chinese will sacrifice their entire country, make it uninhabitable just to stick it to the US :roll:

Like I said ric, why would a bank who lent you money for your house try to light your house on fire? That's essentially what you say China is planning to do.

DrunkenAsparagus said:

That's fantastic. What does that have to do with China going to war with us?

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You have to go beyond "the box thinking"....Mister Asparagus


1 - China goes after the Spratly islands (massive oil reserves) or Taiwan. What would , the US do?

2 - A China/India conflict. What would , the US do?

3 - Israel/Iran conflict. What would , the US do?.....What would China do?

ric27 said:

You have to go beyond "the box thinking"....Mister Asparagus

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ric27 said:

1 - China goes after the Spratly islands (massive oil reserves) or Taiwan. What would , the US do?

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We don't get involved.

ric27 said:

2 - A China/India conflict. What would , the US do?

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We don't get involved

ric27 said:

3 - Israel/Iran conflict. What would , the US do?.....What would China do?

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China doesn't get involved, and we probably don't either.

Uh, China and India did fight a war.

Sino-Indian War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

ric27 said:

You have to go beyond "the box thinking"....Mister Asparagus


1 - China goes after the Spratly islands (massive oil reserves) or Taiwan. What would , the US do?

2 - A China/India conflict. What would , the US do?

3 - Israel/Iran conflict. What would , the US do?.....What would China do?

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We go for a depressed trajectory shot, take out their nuclear missiles, problem solved. Hell, I'd say its more likely the United States declares war on China than vice versa. Think about it, we wouldn't have to recognize our debts to them, we could wipe out our trade imbalance, and we remove our biggest political/economic rival.

Fiddytree said:

Perhaps, but I'm also thinking about what the Chinese would like to do, at least as far as what our specialists are looking at. China has never really been much for truly expansive behavior, save a few instances (Taiwan, for example). They have mostly been interested in their own borders.

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Which is why they claim territory possessed by more than half dozen countries, claim an EEZ that runs almost all the way to Japan's Ryukyu Islands, claim the entire South China Sea as their own, etc.... yeah, right... They launched a war against India to gain territory, invaded and occupied Tibet in the 1950s ... not expansionist? You obviously aren't reading between the tea leaves when it comes to Chinese rhetoric...

ludahai said:

Which is why they claim territory possessed by more than half dozen countries, claim an EEZ that runs almost all the way to Japan's Ryukyu Islands, claim the entire South China Sea as their own, etc.... yeah, right... They launched a war against India to gain territory, invaded and occupied Tibet in the 1950s ... not expansionist? You obviously aren't reading between the tea leaves when it comes to Chinese rhetoric...

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China is the next British empire. They are looking to sate their need for precious metals, and tangible goods. As such, they are expanding their sphere of influence into the Indian ocean by establishing ports in many cities in that region. Imperialism in a traditional sense is dead, because of the threat of MAD, countless defensive pacts, and (to a lesser extent) the UN.

If China is going to maintain any expansionist policies, they will be subtle, and economical

repeter said:

China is the next British empire. They are looking to sate their need for precious metals, and tangible goods. As such, they are expanding their sphere of influence into the Indian ocean by establishing ports in many cities in that region. Imperialism in a traditional sense is dead, because of the threat of MAD, countless defensive pacts, and (to a lesser extent) the UN.

If China is going to maintain any expansionist policies, they will be subtle, and economical

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An astute assessment.

Well,

with O'Donnell outing the treacherous Chinese...
and Palin defending us from dastardly Soviet threats on the Alaskan front....
and Hillary landing underfire in war torn Bosnia.....
and Pelosi seeking to pat good willed Iranians on the butt for their efforts in Iraq during the surge....

we are in good experienced hands.

Got to love a Fire Team of idiots.

MSgt said:

Well,

with O'Donnell outing the treacherous Chinese...
and Palin defending us from dastardly Soviet threats on the Alaskan front....
and Hillary landing underfire in war torn Bosnia.....
and Pelosi seeking to pat good willed Iranians on the butt for their efforts in Iraq during the surge....

we are in good experienced hands.

Got to love a Fire Team of idiots.

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:applaud :applaud :applaud :applaud

DrunkenAsparagus said:

We don't get involved.



We don't get involved



China doesn't get involved, and we probably don't either.

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The US has long pursued a goal of democratization in the belief that stable democracies provide the most liberty to their people and are least inclined to pursue wars of aggression against their neighbors. I believe this to be true....up to a point. And that's the rub. There are cultures that just have different values. Their desires and values are incompatible with western democracy and concepts of individual freedom.

Will we learn from this? Probably not. Unfortunately, a huge segment of the American population is incapable of really deep thought and analysis. They don't have the patience to really study stuff (it's boring!) since they aren't in school and they didn't study in school anyway. They can't really understand that there are people who think in radically different patterns and don't want a world in our image. And they can't grasp that Maslow's hierarchy of needs may not be correct for all people.