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U.S. to apologize for STD experiments in Guatemala

Lord Tammerlain said:
The US government was responsible for the actions, and the US government is a representative of the US people. It does mean that the US people share the responsibility for the actions the US government has taken.
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not when you're in opposition

john boehner, the orange dude, is not responsible for obamacare, for example

obama is, and pelosi and reid and jerry mcnerney, debbie halvorson, baron hill, travis childers, ann kirkpatrick, patrick murphy, ed perlmutter, gary peters, john salazar, tom perriello...

I do and so do all Canadians have the indirect blame for those actions taken by the Canadian government
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i don't recognize your concept of indirect blame

speak for yourself
 
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Harry Guerrilla said:
If the I am supposedly responsible for stuff I had no idea about, then so are the Guatemalan people.



Complete bull ****.

None of us knew about it and if we did, most would have been appalled by such things.

Using your logic, the human experiments in the Manhattan project were innocent victims and responsible for the government injecting them with radioactive material.
That's garbage.
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The Guatemalan people did not have a choice in who was in their government, they could not hold their government to task for anything the government did, legal or illegal. As such they do not have the direct or indirect blame for what their government did at the time

It is the American people who elect the government, it is the American people who can demand their government does not hold secrects like the above actions, it is the American people who do hold indirect responsibility for the actions taken by the US government. The direct responsibility of course would lay with the people taking the actions.

I do not blame the victims for the actions of the US government, (americans injected with radioactive material, or in the case of native canadians having childern kidnapped and put into residential schools) as they did not have the ability to stop it. I do blame the American and Canadian governments, and the people of those countries for not demanding a more open and transparent government. Where things like this could take place
 
Tashah said:
It wasn't me either. I wasn't even born yet.

The blame lies squarely on those in government at the time who conceived it, approved it, participated in it, and covered it up.

Don't misunderstand. The US government finally owning up to this and apologizing are the right things for the US government to do.

But casting a collective guilt-net over every American 60 years later is also a dishonesty.
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No need for Americans to feel guilty over it, but they should accept the fact that compensation should be paid to the victims of those actions, and that they will be the ones who will have to pay for the actions of the US government.
 
Lord Tammerlain said:
The Guatemalan people did not have a choice in who was in their government, they could not hold their government to task for anything the government did, legal or illegal. As such they do not have the direct or indirect blame for what their government did at the time

It is the American people who elect the government, it is the American people who can demand their government does not hold secrects like the above actions, it is the American people who do hold indirect responsibility for the actions taken by the US government. The direct responsibility of course would lay with the people taking the actions.

I do not blame the victims for the actions of the US government, (americans injected with radioactive material, or in the case of native canadians having childern kidnapped and put into residential schools) as they did not have the ability to stop it. I do blame the American and Canadian governments, and the people of those countries for not demanding a more open and transparent government. Where things like this could take place
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We can demand all we want but it doesn't change the fact that we can be just as helpless as the Guatemalans.
Government has the guns, if they want to experiment on people in secret, they can and probably still do.
The fact that it is done in secret, makes it near impossible for the American people to discover and hold those who participated accountable.

The same is true for me though.

1. I don't see any proof that Congress or the President knew anything about it.
2. I was not in control of the agencies involved.
3. I was not born.
 
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Harry Guerrilla said:
We can demand all we want but it doesn't change the fact that we can be just as helpless as the Guatemalans.
Government has the guns, if they want to experiment on people in secret, they can and probably still do.
The fact that it is done in secret, makes it near impossible for the American people to discover and hold those who participated accountable.

The same is true for me though.

1. I don't see any proof that Congress or the President knew anything about it.
2. I was not in control of the agencies involved.
3. I was not born.
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You cant change what has happened, you do have the power to try to ensure stuff like that does not occur again
 
Lord Tammerlain said:
No need for Americans to feel guilty over it, but they should accept the fact that compensation should be paid to the victims of those actions, and that they will be the ones who will have to pay for the actions of the US government.
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I have little problem with a monetary compensation.

But I do have a major problem about being blamed for it, either directly or indirectly.
 
Lord Tammerlain said:
No need for Americans to feel guilty over it, but they should accept the fact that compensation should be paid to the victims of those actions, and that they will be the ones who will have to pay for the actions of the US government.
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Paying compensation is different from saying everyone is responsible.

I'm fine with that in fact, they should go after the estates of those who participated, not just squeeze the government for cash.
 
Tashah said:
I have little problem with a monetary compensation.

But I do have a major problem about being blamed for it, either directly or indirectly.
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The blame is placed on the government, in a democracy the government represents the will of the people. As such the actions taken by the government good or bad with or or without public knowledge is done on behalf of the people
 
Harry Guerrilla said:
Paying compensation is different from saying everyone is responsible.

I'm fine with that in fact, they should go after the estates of those who participated, not just squeeze the government for cash.
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Why would you pay compensation for something you are not responsible for
 
Lord Tammerlain said:
The blame is placed on the government, in a democracy the government represents the will of the people. As such the actions taken by the government good or bad with or or without public knowledge is done on behalf of the people
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That's bull****. This was a SECRET PROGRAM which was kept hidden from the American people.

Why? Because the government knew that the program DID NOT represent the will of the American people.

You really can't grasp this simplicity?
 
Tashah said:
That's bull****. This was a SECRET PROGRAM which was kept hidden from the American people.

Why? Because the government knew that the program DID NOT represent the will of the American people.

You really can't grasp this simplicity?
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That government and all US governments were elected by the people for the people.


Secret program or not the government was directly responsible for the action, and the people are indirectly responsible for allowing the government to operate in such secrecy in the first place
 
Harry Guerrilla said:
Because the people who are responsible are a part of the government and did these things, with the consent of a portion of it.

"The people" did not decide to do this, a few people did.
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I would not be willing to pay compensation for something I did not feel I was in some way responsible for.
 
Lord Tammerlain said:
That government and all US governments were elected by the people for the people.


Secret program or not the government was directly responsible for the action, and the people are indirectly responsible for allowing the government to operate in such secrecy in the first place
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What about the people who voted for the other candidate that lost?
Are they still responsible?
 
Lord Tammerlain said:
Secret program or not the government was directly responsible for the action, and the people are indirectly responsible for allowing the government to operate in such secrecy in the first place
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I see. The people allowed a secrecy they didn't know about... due to secrecy.

:rofl
 
Guy Incognito said:
I certainly don't think that all experimentation that simply effects mass amounts of people is always reprehensible. It's the fact that it was performed without their knowledge or consent that makes it immoral.
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My government does experements on the American people all the time - legislative experiments, economic experiments ... without my consent and sometimes without my knowledge. I'm thinking I need some compensation...
 
Ockham said:
My government does experements on the American people all the time - legislative experiments, economic experiments ... without my consent and sometimes without my knowledge. I'm thinking I need some compensation...
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Let me know when the experiements could cause you to die a horrible death as a direct result of the experiement
 
SE102 said:
So it cant research disease?
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This wasn't researching diseases the proper way. The proper way is you inform and ask permission if you can. These people were just performing without permission or even knowledge. It is a sick act.
 
This wasn't "the right thing for the US to do". What happened was that they got completely and without a shadow of a doubt busted on it from a sociology professor breaking the story, said "oh **** now we gotta do damage control" and came out and apologized to cover their ass. Make no mistake, they don't care either way about the moral implications; they only care about the political implications.
 
Khayembii Communique said:
This wasn't "the right thing for the US to do". What happened was that they got completely and without a shadow of a doubt busted on it from a sociology professor breaking the story, said "oh **** now we gotta do damage control" and came out and apologized to cover their ass. Make no mistake, they don't care either way about the moral implications; they only care about the political implications.
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That's your silly interpretation because you - assume - that the current power brokers in Washington are keenly aware of every dark secret perpetrated by government predecessors. The likelihood of this knowledge-omnipotence is as nil as your assumption.
 
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