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Student kills himself after gay sex footage put online

jallman said:
Quick question...

Being that the room was shared by both of the boys, is it really even an invasion of privacy that he turned on the web cam on his desk in his own room?
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I should think that the live streaming bit is where the invasion comes in.
 
RightinNYC said:
Except they didn't hand him a bridge, which leaves us with the following analogy: "If I got you as angry as possible and then you bought a gun and shot yourself, do you think I would not be partially responsible"?
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The question is the means. That is the only reason I"m not 100% sure of whether to hold them partially accountable or not.

However, they gave him a clear motivation to commit suicide. So they satisfied half the criteria.

I'd say yes, but to a very small degree and certainly not to a level of legal culpability. Even then, it assumes that you intentionally got the other person "as angry as possible."
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I disagree. I think if you put someone in an emotional state where they are susceptible to lethality and provide the means to hurt themselves or others, then you are partially responsible when they do and should be held legally responsible. I think our bullying problem around this country, both online and off, would quickly come to an end if people were held responsible in that manner.
 
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RightinNYC said:
I think that the second and third charges will be dropped once the furor dies down
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I don't think the furor is going to die down. This is already beng treated by many gay groups as Matthew Shepard 2.0. We are probably going to be hearing about this for years and years and there is going to be considerable outrage from the gay community if at least Revi doesn't recieve some jail time. The fact that this occurred around the time when 4 other gay youth suicides took place has heated this up to molten proportions.
 
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CriticalThought said:
The question is the means. That is the only reason I"m not 100% sure of whether to hold them partially accountable or not.

However, they gave him a clear motivation to commit suicide. So they satisfied half the criteria.
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I don't understand how you think there is a question about the means. They did not build the GWB and hand it to the kid. They did not drive him to the bridge and walk him to the ledge. They had absolutely nothing to do with the means of his suicide.

I disagree. I think if you put someone in an emotional state where they are susceptible to lethality and provide the means to hurt themselves or others, then you are partially responsible when they do and should be held legally responsible. I think our bullying problem around this country, both online and off, would quickly come to an end if people were held responsible in that manner.
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I think this is a case of overreacting to a situation by arguing for a solution that would have terrible unintended consequences. How do you think this would play out in real life? If a girl cheated on a guy and left him, prompting him to jump off a bridge, should she be charged with manslaughter?
 
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CriticalThought said:
I don't think the furor is going to die down. This is already beng treated by many gay groups as Matthew Shepard 2.0.
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I think that's insane and that any groups that make that argument will suffer a massive credibility hit.
 
RightinNYC said:
I think this is a case of overreacting to a situation by arguing for a solution that would have terrible unintended consequences. How do you think this would play out in real life? If a girl cheated on a guy and left him, prompting him to jump off a bridge, should she be charged with manslaughter?
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5 young people have killed themselves over the last 3 weeks due to being bullied because of their sexual orientation. Conservatives like yourself like to forget that the law of unintended consequences works both ways, for action or inaction. Right now, the unintended consequences of doing nothing seem pretty steep.

As far as your example, I cited that there needs to be a clear "intent" and "means" provided. So no, she would not.
 
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RightinNYC said:
I think that's insane and that any groups that make that argument will suffer a massive credibility hit.
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Oh, it certaiinly is not comparable. Tying someone to fence, beating them, and then leaving them to die of exposure is not the same videoing someone without their consent and broadcasting it to others. And I doubt that Revi is going to quote Scriptures on the stand as a justification for his actioins like one of Shepard's killers did. But the outrage is nonetheless similar.
 
CriticalThought said:
5 young people have killed themselves over the last 3 weeks due to being bullied because of their sexual orientation. Conservatives like yourself like to forget that the law of unintended consequences works both ways, for action or inaction. Right now, the unintended consequences of doing nothing seem pretty steep.
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And you think that passing a law that would criminalize a massive swath of indeterminate behavior would have prevented those deaths?

As far as your example, I cited that there needs to be a clear "intent" and "means" provided. So no, she would not.
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The intent and means in my hypothetical are identical to or worse than the intent and means in this case. Either your proposed law would affect both or neither.
 
RightinNYC said:
And you think that passing a law that would criminalize a massive swath of indeterminate behavior would have prevented those deaths?
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I haven't actually proposed any law, just my thoughts on what constitutes legal culpabilty in these matters. I believe they are currently working on a new cyberbullying law in New Jersey and across the nation they are challenging schools to confront bullyng in all its forms. That alone makes me happy.

The intent and means in my hypothetical are identical to or worse than the intent and means in this case. Either your proposed law would affect both or neither.
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I conceded that I was unsure that there were any means in Clementi's case several posts back. That is why I said I'm not a 100% of their legal culpability.
 
BDBoop said:
I'm just going to give you a cheesy internet hug and tell you I'm sorry for your loss.
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Thanks, I appreciate it. Even though this was years ago, it never left me. But I think I came to appreciate the small things in life more. Take every moment for what it is.
 
RightinNYC said:
Fortunately for these two, that's not the legal standard for involuntary manslaughter (or anything, really).
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Thanks. It just breaks my heart. Hell reading this thread breaks my heart:(
 
jallman said:
While I appreciate your compassion, I have to disagree that a bullying atmosphere is still grounds to charge them with murder. He attended that school, lived in that particular dormitory, and associated with those particular people by choice. If he wasn't finding acceptance and belonging among them, there are countless other circles of friends to find his way among.

Only he had the power to jump off that bridge. No one pushed him, inadverently or otherwise, off of it. He did that to himself. There is ZERO grounds for holding these kids accountable for anything other than invasion of privacy.
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But he had went to them to try to get changed rooms so he would not have to deal with them:(
 
1069 said:
Yeah, looking at the boy's history, it's obvious "crappy parenting" is to blame.
Someone ought to prosecute the parents of the dead kid. :roll:
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I am not calling his parents crappy... the other kids parents that did the filming and just most parents in general. Go spark controversy somewhere else...
 
CriticalThought said:
5 young people have killed themselves over the last 3 weeks due to being bullied because of their sexual orientation. Conservatives like yourself like to forget that the law of unintended consequences works both ways, for action or inaction. Right now, the unintended consequences of doing nothing seem pretty steep.

As far as your example, I cited that there needs to be a clear "intent" and "means" provided. So no, she would not.
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Quit right there. You have no idea why they committed suicide but to pretend homosexuals are so fragile that bullying will always be the catalyst in a suicide is insulting.
 
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texmaster said:
Quit right there. You have no idea why they committed suicide but to pretend homosexuals are so fragile that bullying will always be the catalyst in a suicide is insulting.
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If homosexuals and heterosexuals were on equal playing ground you would have a point. However, there is still a huge stigma attached to homosexuality for many. People are still being cast aside by family and friends for coming out.
 
Dr_Patrick said:
If homosexuals and heterosexuals were on equal playing ground you would have a point. However, there is still a huge stigma attached to homosexuality for many. People are still being cast aside by family and friends for coming out.
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Well said and the suicide rate for gay teens is much much higher than for straight teens:(
 
Kali said:
Well said and the suicide rate for gay teens is much much higher than for straight teens:(
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I'm hoping that changes. The current "It Gets Better" movement is very inspiring and I sincerely hope that it does some good.
 
Dr_Patrick said:
If homosexuals and heterosexuals were on equal playing ground you would have a point. However, there is still a huge stigma attached to homosexuality for many. People are still being cast aside by family and friends for coming out.
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Families cast out children for partying too much, marrying the wrong person, piercings, being bad in school. There are strong kids and there are weak kids. There are kids with emotional problems and there are kids with self esteem issues.

Not every single homosexual kills themselves because they were bullied or cast out. Thats a lazy and general assumption. Homosexuals are just as diverse as any other group. They have weak and strong members, emotional and non emotional, caring and uncaring people.

I've yet to see any study that claims homosexuals kill themselves over bullying every time.
 
Kali said:
Well said and the suicide rate for gay teens is much much higher than for straight teens:(
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You don't know the reasons behind those suicides so pretending you do is just lazy thinking. Sometimes you never know was the reason truly was.
 
texmaster said:
Families cast out children for partying too much, marrying the wrong person, piercings, being bad in school. There are strong kids and there are weak kids. There are kids with emotional problems and there are kids with self esteem issues.
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None of which are comparable to coming out to your family and having them cast you aside simply because you are attracted to people of the same sex. Try again.

Not every single homosexual kills themselves because they were bullied or cast out. Thats a lazy and general assumption. Homosexuals are just as diverse as any other group. They have weak and strong members, emotional and non emotional, caring and uncaring people. I've yet to see any study that claims homosexuals kill themselves over bullying every time.
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I never said that. I think it's obvious that bullying isn't the cause of all homosexual suicides. It can happen for a variety of reasons. Most of them stem from the stigma that is still attached to being a homosexual. Bullying is included in that. I wasn't saying that bullying is the only cause. If that's what came across by me in a previous post, I apologize.
 
texmaster said:
You don't know the reasons behind those suicides so pretending you do is just lazy thinking. Sometimes you never know was the reason truly was.
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Well it is not that damn hard to figure out now is it? Not to mention you must take into account left behind notes, bullying, etc. So not that hard to figure out and it is a big problem. A very sad one.
 
Kali said:
Well it is not that damn hard to figure out now is it? Not to mention you must take into account left behind notes, bullying, etc. So not that hard to figure out and it is a big problem. A very sad one.
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And exactly what do you know about each of these five people? The point that texmaster is making is that you have no idea if these people killed themselves because of bullying, homophobia, or something else.
 
Ahlevah said:
When it comes to suicide, it's better to not try to use logic. Otherwise, one might come to the conclusion that Tyler Clementi placed his own selfish need above the anguish his act--and it was his act--would bring to his family and friends.
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It was indeed a selfish act and it was his choice. However, those bullies contributed to his misery and hopefully will live to feel guilty.
 
RightinNYC said:
And exactly what do you know about each of these five people? The point that texmaster is making is that you have no idea if these people killed themselves because of bullying, homophobia, or something else.
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Exactly. There seems to be a developing mindset in this country to hold someone or something else responsible for an act other than the person who actually commits it. How many people died last week because their murderers drank too much coffee?
 
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