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U.S. Wants to Make It Easier to Wiretap the Internet

At least they trying to be up-front with it.. under Bush they just did it (and most likely still do)...

Under Bush, the government just unilaterally required businesses to develop software that would allow them to be technically capable of responding to a subpoena? Or are you just throwing out an unrelated criticism of Bush that actually has nothing to do with the issue at hand?
 
It's not the U.S. that wants this, it's Obama and the radicals of the inner circle of Czars, radicals, and socialistic Communists.
sta_innercircle.gif

When ones base of support falls precipitously and your inner circle run like rats leaving a sinking ship and paranoia raises it head and you have already asked the people to inform on their neighbors and you have an enemies list you want to do anything to find out who the opposition is and what they are saying.

Please note that all dictators and wanna be dictators have a control freal paranoia at work and National security is the cover story used.

Look into the history of this taking place and you have to look no farther than Obama's pal and role model Hugo Chavez.

Also look for attacks from Obama and his cadre of henchmen to step up attacks and pressure on Fox News and Conservative Talk Radio, cause brothers and sisters it's coming, they have already laid the ground work and told us their plans.
 
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It's not the U.S. that wants this, it's Obama and the radicals of the inner circle of Czars, radicals, and socialistic Communists.
sta_innercircle.gif

When ones base of support falls precipitously and your inner circle run like rats leaving a sinking ship and paranoia raises it head and you have already asked the people to inform on their neighbors and you have an enemies list you want to do anything to find out who the opposition is and what they are saying.

Please note that all dictators and wanna be dictators have a control freal paranoia at work and National security is the cover story used.

Look into the history of this taking place and you have to look no farther than Obama's pal and role model Hugo Chavez.

Also look for attacks from Obama and his cadre of henchmen to step up attacks and pressure on Fox News and Conservative Talk Radio, cause brothers and sisters it's coming, they have already laid the ground work and told us their plans.

There will be an, "emergency", between now and January '13, that will give Obama the excuse he needs to seize power. Of course, it will be, "necessary", for the, "good of the country".

I'm thinking it will come in the form of an economic collapse, but if the Dems can't induce that, something else will be staged.
 
There will be an, "emergency", between now and January '13, that will give Obama the excuse he needs to seize power. Of course, it will be, "necessary", for the, "good of the country".

I'm thinking it will come in the form of an economic collapse, but if the Dems can't induce that, something else will be staged.

that's as stupid as the people who said that about bush.
 
that's as stupid as the people who said that about bush.
I'm sorry -- I didnt see where you thanked me for supplying you the links that show that The Obama is continuing the Bush warrantless-wiretap policies.
 
At least they trying to be up-front with it.. under Bush they just did it (and most likely still do)...

Third post, and already we're apologizing. I'm not surprised.
 
I never saw conservatives protesting GWB. Call it even?

We're only protesting because you lefties are hypocrites, and we want to know why. Why is it okay for Obama?
 
When I see liberals protesting Him like they did GWB, I'll believe you.

I consider myself a liberal and I'm protesting him. Anyone who wants to take away my privacy will get my protest. Doesn't matter if they are Democrat or Republican.
 
There will be an, "emergency", between now and January '13, that will give Obama the excuse he needs to seize power. Of course, it will be, "necessary", for the, "good of the country".

I'm thinking it will come in the form of an economic collapse, but if the Dems can't induce that, something else will be staged.

You have an issue where the Democrats have clearly in the wrong, and it would be very simple to make a reasonsed argument why this would hurt our nation. So why the hell do you go off deep end with some crackpot conspiracy nonsense? You are just making anyone reasonable who opposes this kind of expansion of power look bad.
 
Bush = Spy on our citizens without the counterbalance of a legitimate judicial warrant. Liberals Protest, Conservatives Say the Democrats want to let the Terrorists terrorize.

Obama = Spy on suspected criminals with the counterbalance of a legitimate judicial warrant. Conservatives accuse Liberals of Hypocrisy, Democrats say the comparison is idiotic.

Obama =/= Bush on surveillance. With a fair comparison, this is obvious to even a child.
 
This is hilarious.

The Bush administration wanted to spy on citizens without the benefit of a counterbalance. Without the counterbalance it is simply spying on citizens.

The Obama administration wants to spy on suspected criminals (who happen to be citizens) with the benefit of a counterbalance. With the counterbalance it is spying on suspected criminals.

What's hilarious?
 
The Bush administration wanted to spy on citizens without the benefit of a counterbalance. Without the counterbalance it is simply spying on citizens.

The Obama administration wants to spy on suspected criminals (who happen to be citizens) with the benefit of a counterbalance. With the counterbalance it is spying on suspected criminals.

What's hilarious?

The people that the Bush administration targeted were suspected of having committed wrongdoing. The people that the Obama administration seeks to target are suspected of having committed wrongdoing. The fact that the government obtains a warrant does not transform a citizen into a mere "suspected criminal." Your choice of words makes your personal position pretty obvious.
 
You have an issue where the Democrats have clearly in the wrong, and it would be very simple to make a reasonsed argument why this would hurt our nation. So why the hell do you go off deep end with some crackpot conspiracy nonsense? You are just making anyone reasonable who opposes this kind of expansion of power look bad.

I tell ya what, if it doesn't happen, you can beat the crap out of me in 2013. Fair enough?

I've eaten my hat before, so I'm not afraid to eat it again. Hell! I hope I'm wrong!
 
The people that the Bush administration targeted were suspected of having committed wrongdoing. The people that the Obama administration seeks to target are suspected of having committed wrongdoing. The fact that the government obtains a warrant does not transform a citizen into a mere "suspected criminal." Your choice of words makes your personal position pretty obvious.

You ignore the key thing: There was no constraint proposed in the Bush administration policy to help ensure restraint on the use of domestic surveillance. To me that makes all the difference. If Bush had proposed similar things, I would have had ZERO objection. If Obama was making these proposals without the constraints, I would have TONS of objection. There is no hypocrisy in this position.
 
I was a little reactionary when I first read this piece of news, but let's think about what this really entails.

It requires internet providers to update their technology to give government access.

A warrant is then needed to tap users.

This has more to do with modernization of law enforcement capabilities than it does with wiretapping rules themselves. As long as a warrant is still needed, I am reluctantly ok with it. Still, I don't like the idea that the government can wiretap you at all.
 
I was a little reactionary when I first read this piece of news, but let's think about what this really entails.

It requires internet providers to update their technology to give government access.

A warrant is then needed to tap users.

This has more to do with modernization of law enforcement capabilities than it does with wiretapping rules themselves. As long as a warrant is still needed, I am reluctantly ok with it. Still, I don't like the idea that the government can wiretap you at all.

You still don't quite get the problem with this. An encrypted message is encrypted for a reason. So people can't read it unless they know the key. It's the same principle as in Australia when Bitlocker came out for Windows 7 Ultimate. They claim criminals now have the capability to hide illegal content behind these full drive encryptions and pretty much wants Microsoft to install a backdoor into the encryption algorithm. This totally will circumvent the security lock installed by having it so hackers that want to gain unauthorized access by hacking away at those backdoors that are supposed to be compliant with government rules.

And what to do with quantum encryptions? D: I mean, it's hard to copy an electron of the same physical properties just to decrypte the signal.....

If the government want to do wiretaps, don't make it where it is contradictory to "encrypted" by making it able to easily decrypt...... Blackberry is encrypted enough that government and companies use it to be able to communicate securely. Facebook... warrant is good enough, most of the data isn't encrypted. p2p networks? HAH! That's a good one..... There's a good reason why it's called peer-----to------peer...... There's no server that records them.................... I'm sorry... it sounds good and all, but it creates a lot more problems than it fixes...
 
I was a little reactionary when I first read this piece of news, but let's think about what this really entails.

It requires internet providers to update their technology to give government access.
.

It requires internet providers to make their **** less secure so that the government has easy access to spy on people. They have no business forcing companies to make their **** less secure just so it can be easy for them to monitor things. If they get a warrant then sure let them tap the lines, however if it is secure then they need to hire a specialist to crack the encryption and if they can't then that is too bad.
 
I tell ya what, if it doesn't happen, you can beat the crap out of me in 2013. Fair enough?

I've eaten my hat before, so I'm not afraid to eat it again. Hell! I hope I'm wrong!

Honestly, I wish I had gotten such a pledge out of the Democrats who ruined reasonable debate about warrantless wiretapping with bush=fascist takeover nonsense. Would have made 2008 a lot more fun. What really kills me is that my biggest fear has actually come to pass. The attack on civil liberties has been sanctioned by two different administrations representing both parties and voters seem to have accepted it. The precedent has been set, and it will hard to go back now that both sides are invested in it.
 
I decided to actually read the article before commenting. I find it several things to be very interesting:

  • The meat - "Essentially, officials want Congress to require all services that enable communications — including encrypted e-mail transmitters like BlackBerry, social networking Web sites like Facebook and software that allows direct “peer to peer” messaging like Skype — to be technically capable of complying if served with a wiretap order. The mandate would include being able to intercept and unscramble encrypted messages."
  • The cheese - "But law enforcement officials contend that imposing such a mandate is reasonable and necessary to prevent the erosion of their investigative powers.

    “We’re talking about lawfully authorized intercepts,” said Valerie E. Caproni, general counsel for the Federal Bureau of Investigation. “We’re not talking expanding authority. We’re talking about preserving our ability to execute our existing authority in order to protect the public safety and national security.
    ". They want to preserve existing authority, but the technology has moved past their previous capabilities. Note that Valerie Caproni is a lawyer for the FBI. Just saying, I don't trust lawyers.
  • The toppings - "Moreover, some services encrypt messages between users, so that even the provider cannot unscramble them."
  • The special sauce - "Even with such a law, some gaps could remain. It is not clear how it could compel compliance by overseas services that do no domestic business, or from a “freeware” application developed by volunteers."
  • The bun - "Susan Landau, a Radcliffe Institute of Advanced Study fellow and former Sun Microsystems engineer, argued that the proposal would raise costly impediments to innovation by small startups."
  • You want fries with that? - "Moreover, providers of services featuring user-to-user encryption are likely to object to watering it down. Similarly, in the late 1990s, encryption makers fought off a proposal to require them to include a back door enabling wiretapping, arguing it would cripple their products in the global market.

    But law enforcement officials rejected such arguments. They said including an interception capability from the start was less likely to inadvertently create security holes than retrofitting it after receiving a wiretap order.

    They also noted that critics predicted that the 1994 law would impede cellphone innovation, but that technology continued to improve. And their envisioned decryption mandate is modest, they contended, because service providers — not the government — would hold the key.

    “No one should be promising their customers that they will thumb their nose at a U.S. court order,” Ms. Caproni said. “They can promise strong encryption. They just need to figure out how they can provide us plain text.”
    " :shock:

Here is a list of the anticipated government requirements:
  1. Communications services that encrypt messages must have a way to unscramble them.
  2. Foreign-based providers that do business inside the United States must install a domestic office capable of performing intercepts.
  3. Developers of software that enables peer-to-peer communication must redesign their service to allow interception.

Let me explain my interest in this. I am a software engineer who has been developing a freeware encrypted peer-to-peer network for the past 4 years, in my free time. If you have the right URL, you can communicate directly with a peer with no intervening provider. I do have a directory service which allows people to hook up with each other but after they hook up it does not involve the server. I use strong encryption and the message traffic is encoded making it very hard to break the encryption. I haven't spend any time thinking about how to slave a backdoor comm channel into my software. I wouldn't really want to do so either, which is why this quote: "providers of services featuring user-to-user encryption are likely to object to watering it down." makes a hell of a lot of sense to me. As does this one: "It is not clear how it could compel compliance ... from a “freeware” application developed by volunteers.".

Requirement 1 suggests I need to provide decryption capability - not sure how to do that.
Requirement 3 suggests it can no longer be peer-to-peer, destroying my capability.

This thing needs to be squashed.
 
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I was a little reactionary when I first read this piece of news, but let's think about what this really entails.

It requires internet providers to update their technology to give government access.

A warrant is then needed to tap users.

This has more to do with modernization of law enforcement capabilities than it does with wiretapping rules themselves. As long as a warrant is still needed, I am reluctantly ok with it. Still, I don't like the idea that the government can wiretap you at all.

They are required to give the government access, so when Obama seizes power, he can shutdown the internet. Just like what happened in Iran last year.
 
They are required to give the government access, so when Obama seizes power, he can shutdown the internet. Just like what happened in Iran last year.

should this thread be in the conspiracy forum?
 
I decided to actually read the article before commenting. I find it several things to be very interesting:

  • The meat - "Essentially, officials want Congress to require all services that enable communications — including encrypted e-mail transmitters like BlackBerry, social networking Web sites like Facebook and software that allows direct “peer to peer” messaging like Skype — to be technically capable of complying if served with a wiretap order. The mandate would include being able to intercept and unscramble encrypted messages."
  • The cheese - "But law enforcement officials contend that imposing such a mandate is reasonable and necessary to prevent the erosion of their investigative powers.

    “We’re talking about lawfully authorized intercepts,” said Valerie E. Caproni, general counsel for the Federal Bureau of Investigation. “We’re not talking expanding authority. We’re talking about preserving our ability to execute our existing authority in order to protect the public safety and national security.
    ". They want to preserve existing authority, but the technology has moved past their previous capabilities. Note that Valerie Caproni is a lawyer for the FBI. Just saying, I don't trust lawyers.
  • The toppings - "Moreover, some services encrypt messages between users, so that even the provider cannot unscramble them."
  • The special sauce - "Even with such a law, some gaps could remain. It is not clear how it could compel compliance by overseas services that do no domestic business, or from a “freeware” application developed by volunteers."
  • The bun - "Susan Landau, a Radcliffe Institute of Advanced Study fellow and former Sun Microsystems engineer, argued that the proposal would raise costly impediments to innovation by small startups."
  • You want fries with that? - "Moreover, providers of services featuring user-to-user encryption are likely to object to watering it down. Similarly, in the late 1990s, encryption makers fought off a proposal to require them to include a back door enabling wiretapping, arguing it would cripple their products in the global market.

    But law enforcement officials rejected such arguments. They said including an interception capability from the start was less likely to inadvertently create security holes than retrofitting it after receiving a wiretap order.

    They also noted that critics predicted that the 1994 law would impede cellphone innovation, but that technology continued to improve. And their envisioned decryption mandate is modest, they contended, because service providers — not the government — would hold the key.

    “No one should be promising their customers that they will thumb their nose at a U.S. court order,” Ms. Caproni said. “They can promise strong encryption. They just need to figure out how they can provide us plain text.”
    " :shock:

Here is a list of the anticipated government requirements:
  1. Communications services that encrypt messages must have a way to unscramble them.
  2. Foreign-based providers that do business inside the United States must install a domestic office capable of performing intercepts.
  3. Developers of software that enables peer-to-peer communication must redesign their service to allow interception.

Let me explain my interest in this. I am a software engineer who has been developing a freeware encrypted peer-to-peer network for the past 4 years, in my free time. If you have the right URL, you can communicate directly with a peer with no intervening provider. I do have a directory service which allows people to hook up with each other but after they hook up it does not involve the server. I use strong encryption and the message traffic is encoded making it very hard to break the encryption. I haven't spend any time thinking about how to slave a backdoor comm channel into my software. I wouldn't really want to do so either, which is why this quote: "providers of services featuring user-to-user encryption are likely to object to watering it down." makes a hell of a lot of sense to me. As does this one: "It is not clear how it could compel compliance ... from a “freeware” application developed by volunteers.".

Requirement 1 suggests I need to provide decryption capability - not sure how to do that.
Requirement 3 suggests it can no longer be peer-to-peer, destroying my capability.

This thing needs to be squashed.

Don't you think they can intercept information from the servers that are the middleman from clients to the internet? I mean, I know I have to go through at least 5 other servers before I actually hit the internet backbone. So they kinda could poke their noses in there, but they still need the key to decoding all the messages. That's the iffy part... But other than that, I agree with you.
 
Don't you think they can intercept information from the servers that are the middleman from clients to the internet? I mean, I know I have to go through at least 5 other servers before I actually hit the internet backbone. So they kinda could poke their noses in there, but they still need the key to decoding all the messages. That's the iffy part... But other than that, I agree with you.

Exactly right. There are very few actual backbone servers that route traffic. If you know the IP:port you are interested in you can slave the traffic. But, as you point out, it is encrypted and difficult to break with modern publically available algorithms. I use RSA/SHA256 based Diffie Hellman key exchange, followed with TripleDES 192 bit symmetric encryption with IV vectors and CBC chaining. The more traffic you transmit in a given encryption the easier it is to crack it. Therefore, I renegotiate encryption every so often to refresh the ciphers. Also, I am encoding object communications, so it isn't just plain text I am sending but computational messages between objects in my language and those are referenced by local ID. Even if you look at it in plain text, it makes little sense. It is very very secure.
 
It requires internet providers to make their **** less secure so that the government has easy access to spy on people. They have no business forcing companies to make their **** less secure just so it can be easy for them to monitor things. If they get a warrant then sure let them tap the lines, however if it is secure then they need to hire a specialist to crack the encryption and if they can't then that is too bad.

It's also the responsibility of users to protect their own computers from intrusion from hackers. If you don't like windows having a backdoor, then don't use windows. There are other better platforms now anyway. I'm sure if such a backdoor becomes made, people on the net will find a way to compensate. They always do, because they are smarter than the government when it comes to computers.

Very little that the government does to control the internet is going to have a meaningful effect to the demographic that has something to hide. Those people know how to keep their stuff encrypted regardless of backdoors being made.

I'm not saying I support it, but as long as a warrant is needed then that's at least a step in the right direction away from Bush era wiretap laws.
 
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