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Bob Woodward book details Obama battles with advisers over exit plan for Afghan war

Re: Bob Woodward book details Obama battles with advisers over exit plan for Afghan w

point out the "historical facts" you have presented, which facts buttress your argument

Lacking knowledge, doesn't make you the winner of the debate. I gave you primary source documentation--the Brzenzski quote--unless there's some evidence that Brzenzski didn't say that, then there's your proof. But, if you insist:

The Carter Doctrine was a policy proclaimed by President of the United States Jimmy Carter in his State of the Union Address on January 23, 1980, which stated that the United States would use military force if necessary to defend its national interests in the Persian Gulf region. The doctrine was a response to the 1979 invasion of Afghanistan by the Soviet Union, and was intended to deter the Soviet Union—the Cold War adversary of the United States—from seeking hegemony in the Gulf. After stating that Soviet troops in Afghanistan posed "a grave threat to the free movement of Middle East oil," Carter proclaimed:

The region which is now threatened by Soviet troops in Afghanistan is of great strategic importance: It contains more than two-thirds of the world's exportable oil. The Soviet effort to dominate Afghanistan has brought Soviet military forces to within 300 miles of the Indian Ocean and close to the Straits of Hormuz, a waterway through which most of the world's oil must flow. The Soviet Union is now attempting to consolidate a strategic position, therefore, that poses a grave threat to the free movement of Middle East oil.

Carter Doctrine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia




 
Re: Bob Woodward book details Obama battles with advisers over exit plan for Afghan w

In fact there were a few reasons given for the Soviet invasion but geopolitically, and looking at a map, it seems clear why the Russians wanted control of Afghanistan. Otherwise why would they bother?
The Origins of the Soviet-Afghan War
insights into the circumstances which prompted the war. included are some ussr communiques describing the background
nothing indicates afghanistan was a path taken to reach the persian gulf
It was certainly mentioned at that time that open waters was the main Soviet goal. Again, looking at a map pretty much says it all.
so, you think that a look at a map makes the point that the soviets intended to control the oil of the persian gulf
no need on your part to consider these things that are described as "facts". try them out sometime. they will serve you better than staring at a map
Speaking of a map, this is all over it.
and still no facts ... just map watching
It seemed clear enough that I was referring to the world scene, not to this particular debate board. Does being a member here since 2005 make you an expert on global affairs?
how could i have missed that. you were referring to the world scene when referring to new members:
It seems that every few years a great many new members arrive on the scene insisting on saying "Show Me" to something that has been rather common knowledge.

It demonstrates yet again how history lessons have taken a back seat to courses in self esteem, origami or dance lessons.
[color changed by bubba]
that world scene of origami and dance lessons ... seems some self esteem lessons were too effective, providing those of you without insights a belief that they actually had some
 
Re: Bob Woodward book details Obama battles with advisers over exit plan for Afghan w

Lacking knowledge, doesn't make you the winner of the debate. I gave you primary source documentation--the Brzenzski quote--unless there's some evidence that Brzenzski didn't say that, then there's your proof. But, if you insist:

and we find that the Carter doctrine regarding soviet efforts to control persian gulf oil was as wrong as the bush regime insisting that iraq aided al qaeda and possessed weapons of mass destruction, and had supported the 9/11 attack
(to his credit, at least Carter did not cost us treasure and the lives of our young with his own misrepresentations)

i am surprised that you drank the kool aid of the left as well as the right
certainly, if a politician says someting, it must be the truth [/sarcasm]
 
Re: Bob Woodward book details Obama battles with advisers over exit plan for Afghan w

and we find that the Carter doctrine regarding soviet efforts to control persian gulf oil was as wrong as the bush regime insisting that iraq aided al qaeda and possessed weapons of mass destruction, and had supported the 9/11 attack
(to his credit, at least Carter did not cost us treasure and the lives of our young with his own misrepresentations)

i am surprised that you drank the kool aid of the left as well as the right
certainly, if a politician says someting, it must be the truth [/sarcasm]

We do? Well, by all means, let's see your proof.
 
Re: Bob Woodward book details Obama battles with advisers over exit plan for Afghan w

We do? Well, by all means, let's see your proof.

easy. we see no evidence of a soviet assault on the nations of the persian gulf
 
Re: Bob Woodward book details Obama battles with advisers over exit plan for Afghan w

point out the reference to the soviets going thru afghanistan to attain control of persian gulf oil. i missed seeing it

Did you read it at all???
 
Re: Bob Woodward book details Obama battles with advisers over exit plan for Afghan w

easy. we see no evidence of a soviet assault on the nations of the persian gulf

Well of couurse not. They were stopped in Afghanistan!
 
Re: Bob Woodward book details Obama battles with advisers over exit plan for Afghan w

The Origins of the Soviet-Afghan War
insights into the circumstances which prompted the war. included are some ussr communiques describing the background
nothing indicates afghanistan was a path taken to reach the persian gulf

And of course nothing indicates it doesn't. What it does mean is that you should look at other material, other sources. I offered one.


so, you think that a look at a map makes the point that the soviets intended to control the oil of the persian gulf

A map as well as the beliefs of other political leaders. I mentioned a world map to demonstrate how important Afghanistan would be to the Soviets.
no need on your part to consider these things that are described as "facts". try them out sometime. they will serve you better than staring at a map

In fact I have mentioned facts and suggest you look at a map and you'll get the idea. No need to stare.

and still no facts ... just map watching

Well you can look away now.
how could i have missed that. you were referring to the world scene when referring to new members:

You make a valid point here. I was referring to new members to the world of international politics but I can see how you could easily misunderstand. I should have been more clear.
 
Re: Bob Woodward book details Obama battles with advisers over exit plan for Afghan w

Did you read it at all???

which is what causes me to point out that article does not refer to the points you insist it does

but prove me wrong and point them out
 
Re: Bob Woodward book details Obama battles with advisers over exit plan for Afghan w

Well of couurse not. They were stopped in Afghanistan!

thank you for proving my point
 
Re: Bob Woodward book details Obama battles with advisers over exit plan for Afghan w

jimmy carter LIED us into the olympics boycott

30 years later, i must say, that's a NEW one
 
Re: Bob Woodward book details Obama battles with advisers over exit plan for Afghan w

easy. we see no evidence of a soviet assault on the nations of the persian gulf

That's your proof?!? :rofl!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That's like saying Hitler didn't want to invade the United States; the proof? He didn't do it...:rofl

Whatta hoot!!!
 
Re: Bob Woodward book details Obama battles with advisers over exit plan for Afghan w

Anyone who would knowingly undermine American forces that are fighting on any given battlefield, is a traitor.

The trouble is being able to judge what that really means. An idiot thinks that trying to stop a CIC from spending their lives needlessly is undermining Americvan forces. An intelligent person knows that such an argument shows concern and patriotism. Too often, the idiot class try to defend their reckless politiicans at the cost of Americans under the guise of patriotism. Such idiots are not patirots or good Americans. The actually function contrary to American ideals. Free men welcome proper decent, and celebrate honest objections, without fear.
 
Re: Bob Woodward book details Obama battles with advisers over exit plan for Afghan w

The trouble is being able to judge what that really means.

Here we go....Bring on the grey shades of nuance. Tell me Joe, would you consider a person holding power in the US meeting with an ally of the enemy, to disrupt supply lines to their own forces to be treason?


An idiot thinks that trying to stop a CIC from spending their lives needlessly is undermining Americvan forces.

Then you must have a real problem with Obama sending in 30,000 troops while behind the scenes only looking for a way to run...

An intelligent person knows that such an argument shows concern and patriotism.

Or just chicken**** cowardice.

Too often, the idiot class try to defend their reckless politiicans at the cost of Americans under the guise of patriotism.

Define "Idiot class" so that you look even more foolish.

Such idiots are not patirots or good Americans. The actually function contrary to American ideals. Free men welcome proper decent, and celebrate honest objections, without fear.

No doubt...Any idea when libs might start?


j-mac
 
Re: Bob Woodward book details Obama battles with advisers over exit plan for Afghan w

Of course we need to know exactly wha something is. Many a brutal regime uses all disent as sign of being a traitor, so we have to be clear on what we're talking about. It is the idiot wh doesn't look for such clarity.

And the idiot class are those who don't stop to think and simple see any dissent as traitorous. Follow any of the"libs," whoever they are, are traitors talk, and you're likely to find memebers of the idiot class.
 
Re: Bob Woodward book details Obama battles with advisers over exit plan for Afghan w

Of course we need to know exactly wha something is.

Which is why I asked a pretty specific question, why do you avoid it?


Many a brutal regime uses all disent as sign of being a traitor, so we have to be clear on what we're talking about.

Yes let's....I am waiting sir.

It is the idiot wh doesn't look for such clarity.

Again, I don't know who you are referring to with such a pejorative name as Idiot. However, if this is some cute attempt to name call I think it speaks more to your lack of thinking.

And the idiot class are those who don't stop to think and simple see any dissent as traitorous.

So you are in agreement with the TEA Partiers right to dissent? How about those opposed to the Mosque in NYC's ground zero community?

Follow any of the"libs," whoever they are, are traitors talk, and you're likely to find memebers of the idiot class.

You never fail to disappoint Joe. So, any reasonable reading of this would have to conclude that you think that those in disagreement with you are Idiots. I think you should excuse yourself, you've embarrassed yourself enough today.

j-mac
 
Re: Bob Woodward book details Obama battles with advisers over exit plan for Afghan w

I didn't see a reasonable question. You spoke of "libs," whoever they are, and continue to drift down the partisan denail river. Ask an honest question, and I'll gladly answer you.

And no, I think those who have done what some war supports have done, and tried to claim all and any dissent is traitoous are clealry part of the idiot class. I would include anyone who uses libs or righties as all incompassing tags, trying to avoid any intelligent discussion marginaling their opponents.

Clear yet?
 
Re: Bob Woodward book details Obama battles with advisers over exit plan for Afghan w

I didn't see a reasonable question.

Well, it's only two postings up, but here I'll ask it again....would you consider a person holding power in the US meeting with an ally of the enemy, to disrupt supply lines to their own forces to be treason?

What is unreasonable about that question, and how?


You spoke of "libs," whoever they are

Totally disingenuous. You Joe, you are a liberal, your moniker denotes it, your words for the past 5 + years shout it, and you are a liberal plain and simple.

and continue to drift down the partisan denail river.

You mean like calling your opponents "Idiots" because they don't agree with you?

Ask an honest question, and I'll gladly answer you.

No you won't...It is not in you to do so.

And no, I think those who have done what some war supports have done, and tried to claim all and any dissent is traitoous are clealry part of the idiot class.

However, that is not to say that some of what opponents of the wars have done isn't traitorous.

I would include anyone who uses libs or righties as all incompassing tags, trying to avoid any intelligent discussion marginaling their opponents.

Tags like "Idiots"?

Clear yet?

As the mud you present.

j-mac
 
Re: Bob Woodward book details Obama battles with advisers over exit plan for Afghan w

Free men welcome proper decent, and celebrate honest objections, without fear.

Follow any of the"libs," whoever they are, are traitors talk, and you're likely to find memebers of the idiot class.

I think those who have done what some war supports have done, and tried to claim all and any dissent is traitoous are clealry part of the idiot class. I would include anyone who uses libs or righties as all incompassing tags, trying to avoid any intelligent discussion marginaling their opponents.

idiot class, huh?

talented 5th graders speak better

Clear yet?

some things are
 
Re: Bob Woodward book details Obama battles with advisers over exit plan for Afghan w

Well, it's only two postings up, but here I'll ask it again....would you consider a person holding power in the US meeting with an ally of the enemy, to disrupt supply lines to their own forces to be treason?

What is unreasonable about that question, and how?




Totally disingenuous. You Joe, you are a liberal, your moniker denotes it, your words for the past 5 + years shout it, and you are a liberal plain and simple.



You mean like calling your opponents "Idiots" because they don't agree with you?



No you won't...It is not in you to do so.



However, that is not to say that some of what opponents of the wars have done isn't traitorous.



Tags like "Idiots"?



As the mud you present.

j-mac

Do you have an example of anyone doing that, or that the person I responded to was talking about that? Again, reasonable has to be seen in connection with what we're actually dicussing.

And stupid is a stupid does. I've clear about exactly who I'm including in the idiot class, those who see all dissent as traitorous and those who use tag lines like "libs" and "righties."

How about simply address what is actually being discussed.
 
Re: Bob Woodward book details Obama battles with advisers over exit plan for Afghan w

idiot class, huh?

talented 5th graders speak better



some things are

Is this where we next see mindless linking without comment? :neener
 
Re: Bob Woodward book details Obama battles with advisers over exit plan for Afghan w

Do you have an example of anyone doing that, or that the person I responded to was talking about that? Again, reasonable has to be seen in connection with what we're actually dicussing.

And stupid is a stupid does. I've clear about exactly who I'm including in the idiot class, those who see all dissent as traitorous and those who use tag lines like "libs" and "righties."

How about simply address what is actually being discussed.


ANSWER THE QUESTION!


j-mac
 
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