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Dont ask Dont tell Policy Ruled Unconstitutional

SE102 said:
Wait, you mean they arent targeted cause they havent come out? Right....
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One, they aren't targetted because DADT prevents that. DADT has been a burden that forced the issue of mass courts martial because it laid out distinct black and white rules and gave non-hackers an easy way out. And two, beyond the individual's views, even the Marine Corps would rather not even address gays as an issue, which is where the military was headed naturally before Clinton's blunder of DADT. As defiant towards gays as former military members seem to be, civilians are equally radical in their beliefs of the "hell" gays endure. In 18 years I have never had a gay get forced out in my units. Not that I'm aware of anyway.
 
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IMHO the biggest problem with allowing gays to serve openly is that you will have many more cases of gay members getting involved with other gay members in the same unit. Anyone with half a brain knows the problems that will come from that. Problems like that can completely destroy the cohesion of a small unit which can and will get guys killed. And before any one says that inter unit dating wont be allowed you and I know that it will happen just like it goes on now with men an women in the same unit. While I do think that DADT should go away it is for sure going to cause problems that don't happen now or at least happen a lot less often.
 
TacticalEvilDan said:
Wow, way to edit your statement after I replied to it.
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I edited as you replied to it. I do that often, because I actually think about my posts rather than bang on my seriously cool new laptop. You may retort that I should think about them bfore I submit....well....whatever.

TacticalEvilDan said:
At any rate, they're plenty targeted, or else there wouldn't be ousted gay service-members to read about.
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It is against DADT to target. One must "tell" and only a commanding officer may launch an investigation. Anybody below the Commanding Officer that takes it upon themselves to investigate (which is targetting) is subject to NJP or court martial. The majority of gays that have been "forced" out under DADT have been "tellers." You made a mistake by walking into the recruiters office? Become gay. You don't want to deploy? Become gay. Becoming "gay" forced the military to follow the new rules. There is a reason Court Martials rose dramatically after DADT and have declined since 9/11 when the military chose to start ignoring most of the "tellers."
 
braindrain said:
IMHO the biggest problem with allowing gays to serve openly is that you will have many more cases of gay members getting involved with other gay members in the same unit.
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That is a very big probablity. The unit cohesion is tighter in the infantry units because they do not suffer from the girl/boy relationships in support units. The moment a homosexual breaks up with his fellow team mate there is friction and the unit suffers. Eventually, plenty of teams will be jostled around to accomodate these frictions and this is the opposite of what we have traditionally tried to accomplish. And the moment he is told that he may not fall in love or date his fellow team member his "rights are violated." Instead of an ackowledgment that there are very real concerns ahead of us, civilians will merely offer "meh." I mean, really, beyond the bumper sticker protests and self-righteous need to validate personal feelings, what do they care?

These are legitmiate concerns only understood truley by military members. I don't how other militaries deal with this, but they don't exactly fight like us either. Peoplehave brought up the IDF, but the IDF is a very special and unique case.
 
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MSgt said:
It is against DADT to target. One must "tell" and only a commanding officer may launch an investigation. Anybody below the Commanding Officer that takes it upon themselves to investigate (which is targetting) is subject to NJP or court martial. The majority of gays that have been "forced" out under DADT have been "tellers." You made a mistake by walking into the recruiters office? Become gay. You don't want to deploy? Become gay. Becoming "gay" forced the military to follow the new rules. There is a reason Court Martials rose dramatically after DADT and have declined since 9/11 when the military chose to start ignoring most of the "tellers."
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The ones I keep reading about in the news come off as gay folks who are being booted out for being gay.
 
MSgt said:
That is a very big probablity. The unit cohesion is tighter in the infantry units because they do not suffer from the girl/boy relationships in support units. The moment a homosexual breaks up with his fellow team mate there is friction and the unit suffers. Eventually, plenty of teams will be jostled around to accomodate these frictions and this is the opposite of what we have traditionally tried to accomplish. And the moment he is told that he may not fall in love or date his fellow team member his "rights are violated." Instead of an ackowledgment that there are very real concerns ahead of us, civilians will merely offer "meh." I mean, really, beyond the bumper sticker protests and self-righteous need to validate personal feelings, what do they care?

These are legitmiate concerns only understood truley by military members. I don't how other militaries deal with this, but they don't exactly fight like us either. Peoplehave brought up the IDF, but the IDF is a very special and unique case.
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I would think that a transfer out of a unit could solve those problems.
 
TacticalEvilDan said:
The ones I keep reading about in the news come off as gay folks who are being booted out for being gay.
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What "ones?" And what are these numbers you "keep reading about?" 2? 5? The vast majority who have been booted out under DADT you have not read about, because they are not really gay and they got what they wanted. Hell there's plenty of actual gays that have gotten what they want under DADT so why would they seek to complain? Only the few have sought to defend themselves in the media and it is because they screwed up. DADT has been a complete burden.
 
independent_thinker2002 said:
I would think that a transfer out of a unit could solve those problems.
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Yeah, but that is the problem. A Fire Team is 4. Breaking this up over "dating" issues compromises that core unit strength. It's frowned on for men and women to date within the same unit for a reason. It creates resentments, favoritisms, frictions, jealousies, and so on. This is something infantry units currently don't have. When gays can be "open" we cannot expect them to defy the same rules others already break at the units expense.
 
MSgt said:
What "ones?" And what are these numbers you "keep reading about?" 2? 5? The vast majority who have been booted out under DADT you have not read about, because they are not really gay and they got what they wanted. Hell there's plenty of actual gays that have gotten what they want under DADT so why would they seek to complain? Only the few have sought to defend themselves in the media and it is because they screwed up. DADT has been a complete burden.
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Oh, for crying out loud. How do you know which ones are really gay and which ones aren't?
 
TacticalEvilDan said:
Oh, for crying out loud. How do you know which ones are really gay and which ones aren't?
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I know how many people tried to claim gayness to try to get out, just in my short 4 years in the Army.......
 
MSgt said:
Yeah, but that is the problem. A Fire Team is 4. Breaking this up over "dating" issues compromises that core unit strength. It's frowned on for men and women to date within the same unit for a reason. It creates resentments, favoritisms, frictions, jealousies, and so on. This is something infantry units currently don't have. When gays can be "open" we cannot expect them to defy the same rules others already break at the units expense.
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I totally understand that. I guess the best way to handle it is to make them accountable to be professional lest they be courtmartialed. Even straight teams have those issues don't they?
 
Caine said:
I know how many people tried to claim gayness to try to get out, just in my short 4 years in the Army.......
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I'm sure you do.

In the mean time, I don't give a rat's rear end about anything you have to say until you respond to this post:


TacticalEvilDan said:
Okay, since you're going to both lie about me and insult me:




Now, if you can tell me how signing up for military service when I feel this way about the military would be anything other than dumb, I'd love to hear it.

Otherwise, not signing up is most definitely the smart thing to do, but doesn't mean that serving in general is stupid.

This is the part where you either apologize or evade and continue to lie, I leave the choice in your capable hands.
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TacticalEvilDan said:
Oh, for crying out loud. How do you know which ones are really gay and which ones aren't?
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Which "ones?" I don't. But I know that since the numbers skyrocketed post DADT it very much means that "telling" became the out. But you have always assumed a mission of gay targetting and assumed that gays were being chased down with torches and pitchforks haven't you?
 
independent_thinker2002 said:
I totally understand that. I guess the best way to handle it is to make them accountable to be professional lest they be courtmartialed. Even straight teams have those issues don't they?
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Not as a sexual base amongst each other.
 
MSgt said:
Which "ones?" I don't. But I know that since the numbers skyrocketed post DADT it very much means that "telling" became the out. But you have always assumed a mission of gay targetting and assumed that gays were being chased down with torches and pitchforks haven't you?
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Um, no, I'm strictly going off what I've read in the news, which tends to represent that if you're caught being gay, you're screwed.

Feel free to tell me what I think, though, you've done it several times already.
 
TacticalEvilDan said:
Um, no, I'm strictly going off what I've read in the news, which tends to represent that if you're caught being gay, you're screwed.

Feel free to tell me what I think, though, you've done it several times already.
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Thats a pretty amusing example since you are relying on "news" coverage of this issue and disputing findings with someone actually in the military.
 
Yeah, and that someone admitted he didn't know which ones are booted under DADT for pretending to be gay just to get out.

In other words, I disputed findings with someone actually in the military who actually didn't know the answer.

He's telling me what to think, you're trying to rewrite events minutes later, it's like you don't need anybody else to actually participate when you can make up the entire conversation yourselves. :lol:
 
TacticalEvilDan said:
Um, no, I'm strictly going off what I've read in the news, which tends to represent that if you're caught being gay, you're screwed.
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You aren't going off of anything other than a self induced idea of things. It's a simple matter of common sense. The military went through two phases under DADT....

First phase: Immediately after DADT, the numbers exploded. With the military not being allowed to "ask" and the gay not having to "tell," what do you think was the explosion?

Second phase: Post 9/11 saw these numbers dramatically reduce because it was unnoficially no longer acceptable to merely "tell" your way out of service. Are you aware of the "Military Readiness Enhancement Act?" Probably not. Well, it allowed the military to not have to obey DADT in 2005. You can read about this and actually look at a chart of DADT numbers since its inception to see exacrtly what I have been trying to tell you.

Don't ask, don't tell - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Once again, I can only offer you the material.

TacticalEvilDan said:
Feel free to tell me what I think, though, you've done it several times already.
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Oh it is clear what you think. You are a victim of being tld some untruths in the name of gay pride. Gays are not the eternal victim you need them to be.
 
texmaster said:
Thats a pretty amusing example since you are relying on "news" coverage of this issue and disputing findings with someone actually in the military.
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Well, he's not really finding anything that disputes the facts. He's heard a few things over the years and thinks he has it figured it out based on the few.
 
TacticalEvilDan said:
Um, no, I'm strictly going off what I've read in the news, which tends to represent that if you're caught being gay, you're screwed.

Feel free to tell me what I think, though, you've done it several times already.
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A gay soldier is only screwed, if he/she is stupid enough to actually admit to being gay, or they did something to seriously out themselves.
 
texmaster said:
Thats a pretty amusing example since you are relying on "news" coverage of this issue and disputing findings with someone actually in the military.
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The folks that have actually served in the miltiary are just a buncha homophobes and racists.
 
apdst said:
The folks that have actually served in the miltiary are just a buncha homophobes and racists.
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Well no not all of them and some are even gay:eek:
 
TacticalEvilDan said:
Yeah, and that someone admitted he didn't know which ones are booted under DADT for pretending to be gay just to get out.

In other words, I disputed findings with someone actually in the military who actually didn't know the answer.

He's telling me what to think, you're trying to rewrite events minutes later, it's like you don't need anybody else to actually participate when you can make up the entire conversation yourselves. :lol:
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You didn't dispute anything. You have offerred nothing but assumption into a subject you are clueless about because "free the gay" is the war cry for the outsider. I'm tired of giving you the answers and the evidence. You are obviously hell bent on your misbeliefs. You clearly do not even know the numbers of DADT or the obvious trend that conlcudes most people to a common sense realization. Here's some Internet wisdom in another attempt to learn you beyond the BS...


Since the policy was introduced in 1993, the military has discharged over 13,000 troops from the military under DADT. The number of discharges per fiscal year under DADT dropped sharply after the September 11 attacks and has remained relatively low since. Discharges exceeded 600 every year until 2009. Don't ask, don't tell - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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I have stated this exactly to you over and over. Prior to DADT, the military wasn't given black/white rules on what to do with gays. They were largely being ignored. Then the boom hit. "Telling" was all you needed to get out of deployment and uniform. Post 9/11 it wasn't that easy because screw that excuse. And by 2005, the military managed to get Congress to allow us to mostly place DADT as insignificant. You had to screw each other in the hall way or on the General's lawn before you got your nifty little discharge. The military has already sought to move on from DADT, yet you complain as if it will fix all the problems for gays. Like I have stated over andover and over...."DADT has been a burden."
 
While we are at war, the military is more than happy to let gays serve semi openly, as long as they don't make it into a big publicity thing or get any complaints.

Once we are out of war however, if this policy still exists, then it doesn't matter how well those gays who served semi openly did in Iraq or Afghanistan, the military will be coming for them.

DADT is a policy that can only truly be enforced during peacetime, and its unfortunate that it will be enforced on many of the gay service men and women who gave much in these two wars.
 
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