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Dont ask Dont tell Policy Ruled Unconstitutional

Enlist and effect a change. Train soldier how to deal with serving with openly gay soldiers. Put up, or shut up.

Why would I join an organization where one of my chief duties is to follow orders, when I know I won't be able to reconcile those orders with my personal moral code?
 
Well, it is a good point. However, it wasn't my point and I was very clear on it. The research going on right now is how best to impliment an open gay military post DADT not whether or not it is doable. Virtually all studies in the past were focused on why it can't happen. This study is very different. In the Commandants latest address to the Marines he stated that, based on his interviews and polls throughout the Corps, most Marines do not feel comfortable sharing a room with a homosexual. This isn't news. However, it very much goes into how to impliment an inevitable situation, which is what this study is about. Do you have any idea how many people think of "Just Jack" or the Birdcage when someone mentions homosexuality? Who's to blame for this? This current study is focusing on how to educate beyond the American mindset and how to jump the hurdles as painless as possible. Of course, training for our jobs in the mean time is somewhere on the list.

Do we really need to keep doing this?


I think the whole gay thing will blow over and people will just be doing their job like before.
 
Why would I join an organization where one of my chief duties is to follow orders, when I know I won't be able to reconcile those orders with my personal moral code?

Well, then stop crying about how the military operates, if you're not man enough to get in there and help change it.
 
Right, because an outright ban on serving if you're gay was so much better! :lol:

Um...it was, because it was simply ignored. Look at the numbers. Court martials sky rocketed due to DADT because it forced it into the spotlight. This is actually easy stuff here. No amount of sophomoric smilie use will change the truth. Though I amrather fond of this one....:darthgunny

Feel free to continue to mischaracterize everything I've said while you're at it. It's blatantly obvious to me that honesty is not something you have any interest in, at least within the bounds of this discussion.

Honesty? I'm not the one behaving like a brick wall and ignoring the points I'm making just to cling to simple slogans and an obtuse sense of how things are.


Feel free to fail to take responsibility, or assign it where appropriate, for the military's attitude on homosexuality. Another example of where honesty isn't what you're aiming for.

Oh....I'm supposed to take respnsibility for centuries of tradition now? Here you demand we be better than civilains, but earlier you declare that we are no better. You also declare us puppets for civilian masters and then seek to fault us for not defying civilian policies. Figure it out and then hold a discussion about honesty. You are all over the place because you are emotional. I'm being as honest as I can with you.
 
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Well, then stop crying about how the military operates, if you're not man enough to get in there and help change it.

That's insane. You're telling me to join an organization whose rules I can't countenance, spend decades living by those rules, and hope that at some point I will rise to a position that will permit me to influence those rules from the inside.

No thanks. I'd rather just elect leaders who have the authority to tell you what you're going to do differently, and the moral fiber to actually do so.
 
Especially, if you don't try to ram it down their throats.

Not making thisd change till 20 years or so after the rest of the country has gotten over gays is hardly ramming it down the military's throats.
 
Why would I join an organization where one of my chief duties is to follow orders, when I know I won't be able to reconcile those orders with my personal moral code?

Stop crying about the lack of professionalism in the military, if you're too unprofessional to be a member of the military, yourself.
 
Especially, if you don't try to ram it down their throats.

Gays will be serving and going home to their same sex partners soon with out fear of reprisal. And it really is not any skin off your nose apdst.
 
Not making thisd change till 20 years or so after the rest of the country has gotten over gays is hardly ramming it down the military's throats.

The suggestions as how to make the transition is ramming down the military's throat. It won't be received well.
 
Well, then stop crying about how the military operates, if you're not man enough to get in there and help change it.

The absolute worst place to change the military is from within, unless you are willing to spend 20 + years as an officer. Since the military works for the government, the best way to change the military is as a civilian working for the cause you care about.
 
Gays will be serving and going home to their same sex partners soon with out fear of reprisal. And it really is not any skin off your nose apdst.

Just like it's no skin off your nose if they aren't allowed to serve openly.
 
The suggestions as how to make the transition is ramming down the military's throat. It won't be received well.

No it is not. If the military is not ready, it has only itself to blame. The time has been there, every one who has looked at the issue with any sense of realism knew it would be coming. Obama is being painfully patient with the military in giving them another year.
 
The absolute worst place to change the military is from within, unless you are willing to spend 20 + years as an officer. Since the military works for the government, the best way to change the military is as a civilian working for the cause you care about.

That couldn't be farther from the truth. Have you given any consideration to tactical readiness, when demanding these changes?
 
Um...it was, because it was simply ignored. Look at the numbers. Court martials sky rocketed due to DADT. This is actually easy stuff here.

So the situation was better when gays weren't allowed to serve at all, because . . . nobody enforce the rule. So then what was so bad about Clinton wanting to recind it?

Oh, that's right. The bigots.

Honesty? I'm not the one behaving like a brick wall and ignoring the points I'm making just to cling to simple slogans and an obtuse sense of how things are.

That's exactly what you're doing, but by all means feel free to continue.

Oh....I'm supposed to take respnsibility for centuries of tradition now?

I said, "Feel free to fail to take responsibility, or assign it where appropriate..." In other words, feel free to fail to take responsible for your part, or if you don't have a part in it fee free to fail to assign responsibility to where it is appropriate. Assigning it to society at large is not appropriate. You guys hold yourselves to a higher standard, or so you claim.

Here you demand we be better than civilains, but earlier you declare that we are no better. You also declare us puppets for civilian masters and then seek to fault us for not defying civilian policies. Figure it out and then hold a discussion about honesty. You are all over the place because you are emotional.

Go right head and continue to lie and mischaracterize, because:

I'm being as honest as I can with you.

Oh yes, you certainly are! :lol:
 
Just like it's no skin off your nose if they aren't allowed to serve openly.

Yeah it rpobably is no skin off my nose but for gay military service members that are willing to put life and limb on the it is some skin off their noses.
 
That couldn't be farther from the truth. Have you given any consideration to tactical readiness, when demanding these changes?

Yes. You do not need to be in the military to handle those concepts.
 
Yeah it rpobably is no skin off my nose but for gay military service members that are willing to put life and limb on the it is some skin off their noses.

Well, hell, while we're at it, let's just ignore all regulations for evrey person that puts their life on the line for the country. We can force females to sahre showers with males, even if they don't want to. We can force married couples to allow a single soldier to live in their quarters, even if they want to. We can even stop enforcing hygene standards, because if a soldier doesn't want to take a shower, he doesn't have to.
 
The suggestions as how to make the transition is ramming down the military's throat. It won't be received well.

Like I said it is up to how the senior NCO corps reacts to it. They set the tone.
 
I think the whole gay thing will blow over and people will just be doing their job like before.

It will. You are absolutely correct. The study currently underway will ensure as smooth a transition as possible. But what some of these people don't seem to realize, despite me beating it into their stubborn little faces, is that after the military has become comfortable with the issues, gays in the civilian sector will still be the source of ridicule in the media, hollywood, and television. The military will be fine. It's the civilian world that will have to have it's legal battles and marches just to catch up with what we enforce.
 
Yes. You do not need to be in the military to handle those concepts.

So, you're average civilian understands tactical readiness? I kinda doubt that.
 
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