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Dont ask Dont tell Policy Ruled Unconstitutional

Patria Antiqua said:
If you want to know the true thing: I agree with you.

I just thing MSgt is a gigantic scum-sucking windowlicker and decided to step in. I honestly think he's a great example of why civilians control the military, not vice versa.
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Aww.....your educationally absent feelings hurt about being one of those civilians I spoke of? Civilians need to feel in charge, I know. Once every four years you get to pretend you matter as politicians make decisions entirely without your input. Of course, it's only when they butt out that things get done right.
 
Moderator's Warning:
Folks, let's spend less time talking about other posters, and more time talking about the topic.
 
MSgt said:
Aww.....your educationally absent feelings hurt about being one of those civilians I spoke of? Civilians need to feel in charge, I know. Once every four years you get to pretend you matter as politicians make decisions entirely without your input. Of course, it's only when they butt out that things get done right.
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*sigh* Lets be completely honest here. The military does not control the military for very good reason. Would you prefer we were Turkey, where their military controls the government? Oh yes..that would be wonderful. Generals should be listened to..their input should be heard..but to put the final decision into their hands is a recipe for potential disaster.
 
MSgt said:
Aww.....your educationally absent feelings hurt about being one of those civilians I spoke of? Civilians need to feel in charge, I know. Once every four years you get to pretend you matter as politicians make decisions entirely without your input. Of course, it's only when they butt out that things get done right.
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It's cute that you see yourself as anything other than a pawn, really.

You should drop the act, you're meat for the grinder, and you are controlled by civilians.

opinion8tdwench said:
you seem to have a very limited vision of what military members actually do. Why exactly are you under the impression that the only job out there for NCO's is mechanic work? There is nothing wrong with being a mechanic, but it is far from the only option available for military members. I was never anywhere near a motorpool, nor did I every touch a jet engine during my time in the military. Perhaps you could grab yourself a list of potential military jobs, and check out the wide range of careers involved before you go on about military mechanics?
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No, I was serious about the mechanic bit. I have no idea what his specialty will be, but he can already fix cars and stuff, I'd be surprised if he did anything else.

I should mention that I might know a teensy bit more about how the military works than you give me credit for. I looked into it quite a bit before I decided it wasn't a career I wanted to adopt.
 
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Coronado said:
Right, since open homosexuals are still not hired most places in the private sector. We need the military to show us how.

Oh wait ...
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And many are fired once they are found out. They have no rights to marriage. No equality rights or legal recourse that includes them like blacks and women do. People sought the military tomake race raltionships better between blacks and whites. People sought the military to promote their women. And they do it today for gays.
 
Patria Antiqua said:
It's cute that you see yourself as anything other than a pawn, really.

You should drop the act, you're meat for the grinder, and you are controlled by civilians.


No, I was serious about the mechanic bit. I have no idea what his specialty will be, but he can already fix cars and stuff, I'd be surprised if he did anything else.
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Perhaps in his case, but there ARE many many other jobs out there for people who wish to pursue the military as a career. I was a Russian Linguist/translater/intelligence operator. Hardly a job for a knuckle dragger.
 
MSgt said:
And many are fired once they are found out. They have no rights to marriage. No equality rights or legal recourse that includes them like blacks and women do. People sought the military tomake race raltionships better between blacks and whites. People sought the military to promote their women. And they do it today for gays.
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This is a rather unfair statement. Things have been slowly improving for gays in the civilian sector for quite a while now. If someone is fired for their sexual preference, they have one hell of a lawsuit on their hands that they WILL win. Marriage rights have been granted in several states. Public CIVILIAN attitudes towards gays has been improving steadily for quite a while. Allowing them to serve openly in the military will just be one more step in something that has been happening in the civilian worlds for quite some time now. Surely you don't believe that if it is decided that gays can serve openly, suddenly the angels will sing, and all of america will open their arms wide to the gays of the world and say "come on home folks. So sorry we have been mean to you"? As if once the military gets involved, suddenly all homophobia will dissolve? just like there is no longer any prejudice against blacks, or no sexism?
 
opinion8tdwench said:
Perhaps in his case, but there ARE many many other jobs out there for people who wish to pursue the military as a career. I was a Russian Linguist/translater/intelligence operator. Hardly a job for a knuckle dragger.
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Yeah, I realize that the machine has quite a few different parts. See my edit; I don't seriously think that all soldiers either shoot rifles or fix engines.

Were you seriously a Russian translator? The choice in career I used to want was as a translator in the Moscow embassy. Not a military job, of course, but still.
 
opinion8tdwench said:
*sigh* Lets be completely honest here. The military does not control the military for very good reason. Would you prefer we were Turkey, where their military controls the government? Oh yes..that would be wonderful. Generals should be listened to..their input should be heard..but to put the final decision into their hands is a recipe for potential disaster.
Click to expand...

Well, their military coups every 15 or so years to replace a screwed up government and recharges it before giving it back to the people. You tell me where our country is headed and what you think is the cure. I don't trust any Republican or Democrat.

Iraq is the ultimate proof of civilian disaster. It wasn't until they butted out and gave all operational control over to the military that it turned around. The Gulf War was proof that an absence of civilian control brings swift "victory." Korea, Vietnam, Beirut, Somalia, Bosnia, Afghanistan, and Iraq's fist half are all disasters engineered by civilians. Generals should have more of a say in what is and is not the enemy and how to deal with them. But because Washington is loaded with the anti-war protestors of Vietnam and the wealthy who look down upon the military as a waste of time and life, we will continue to get the civilian's ideas on how to stumble and trip through foreign policy.
 
MSgt said:
And many are fired once they are found out.
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Very very rarely at the most. In many parts of the country it is illegal to do so in fact.

They have no rights to marriage.
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Irrelevant.

No equality rights or legal recourse that includes them like blacks and women do.
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In many/most part of the country they in fact do.

People sought the military tomake race raltionships better between blacks and whites. People sought the military to promote their women. And they do it today for gays.
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Actually, in both cases the civilian world had passed the military in large portions of the country.
 
Patria Antiqua said:
Yeah, I realize that the machine has quite a few different parts. See my edit; I don't seriously think that all soldiers either shoot rifles or fix engines.

Were you seriously a Russian translator? The choice in career I used to want was as a translator in the Moscow embassy. Not a military job, of course, but still.
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Yeah..Spent a lot of time with headsets on in a bunker intercepting russian transmissions. Towards the end of the cold war. A year of intensive training in Russian at DLIFLC in Monterey California, then on to texas for the actual job training. Being in military intelligence is not nearly as glamorous as it sounds. Mostly boring. On occasion got to hear some real stuff, but mostly a lot of very bored Russians talking about their dates the night before. Man..russians are crude.
 
MSgt said:
And many are fired once they are found out.
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The few open homosexuals that are "found out" (not sure how that is supposed to work) and fired have legal recourse.
MSgt said:
They have no rights to marriage.
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They wouldn't have that in the military, either.
MSgt said:
No equality rights or legal recourse that includes them like blacks and women do.
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Clearly false.
MSgt said:
People sought the military tomake race raltionships better between blacks and whites. People sought the military to promote their women. And they do it today for gays.
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Women were being promoted in the private sector long before the military decided to do it. The only example you got right was with blacks.
 
Patria Antiqua said:
It's cute that you see yourself as anything other than a pawn, really.
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We are all pawns. I make no argument against this. Just that pawns deserve this country more than the sloths.

Patria Antiqua said:
I should mention that I might know a teensy bit more about how the military works than you give me credit for. I looked into it quite a bit before I decided it wasn't a career I wanted to adopt.
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I read a pamplet once too.
 
MSgt said:
Well, their military coups every 15 or so years to replace a screwed up government and recharges it before giving it back to the people. You tell me where our country is headed and what you think is the cure. I don't trust any Republican or Democrat.

Iraq is the ultimate proof of civilian disaster. It wasn't until they butted out and gave all operational control over to the military that it turned around. The Gulf War was proof that an absence of civilian control brings swift "victory." Korea, Vietnam, Beirut, Somalia, Bosnia, Afghanistan, and Iraq's fist half are all disasters engineered by civilians. Generals should have more of a say in what is and is not the enemy and how to deal with them. But because Washington is loaded with the anti-war protestors of Vietnam and the wealthy who look down upon the military as a waste of time and life, we will continue to get the civilian's ideas on how to stumble and trip through foreign policy.
Click to expand...

This is where, sadly, Msgt, our political differences are going to seriously blaze forth. The enemy? Which enemy do you mean exactly? Should I just stop here, and leave it at this, or should we go all out? It could get ugly..
 
MSgt said:
Well, their military coups every 15 or so years to replace a screwed up government and recharges it before giving it back to the people. You tell me where our country is headed and what you think is the cure. I don't trust any Republican or Democrat.

Iraq is the ultimate proof of civilian disaster. It wasn't until they butted out and gave all operational control over to the military that it turned around. The Gulf War was proof that an absence of civilian control brings swift "victory." Korea, Vietnam, Beirut, Somalia, Bosnia, Afghanistan, and Iraq's fist half are all disasters engineered by civilians. Generals should have more of a say in what is and is not the enemy and how to deal with them. But because Washington is loaded with the anti-war protestors of Vietnam and the wealthy who look down upon the military as a waste of time and life, we will continue to get the civilian's ideas on how to stumble and trip through foreign policy.
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Maybe we should put the military in charge of everything, like in Burma.
 
MSgt said:
We are all pawns. I make no argument against this. Just that pawns deserve this country more than the sloths.
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"Deserves" has nothing to do with it.
 
Coronado said:
The only example you got right was with blacks.
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Um...no. Women were officers long before they were managers. They were Colonels long before they were CEOs. And gays have a very hard time convincing courts that they were fired because they were gay.

This is exactly what I have been talking about in regards to ignorance being a base for sophomore opinions.
 
Moderator's Warning:
Redress has already dropped a warning and there have already been consequences doled out. Next person out of line loses their privilege to post on this thread... at the very least.
 
opinion8tdwench said:
This is where, sadly, Msgt, our political differences are going to seriously blaze forth. The enemy? Which enemy do you mean exactly? Should I just stop here, and leave it at this, or should we go all out? It could get ugly..
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Well, currently my enemy is the radical and extremist base of Islam. Local fighters in Iraq and Afghanistan are merely caught up in the fight. What are you talking about?
 
MSgt said:
Um...no. Women were officers long before they were managers. They were Colonels long before they were CEOs. And gays have a very hard time convincing courts that they were fired because they were gay.

This is exactly what I have been talking about in regards to ignorance being a base for sophomore opinions.
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"Sophomore" opinions, huh? :lamo

I would ask you for proof, but I doubt you would deign to comply, as ever.
 
MSgt said:
Only to those who received their priveledges by merely being born here.
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Are you a reader of Heinlein by any chance Sgt? In one of his futuristic societies, one can only become a citizen by serving. Being a citizen gives you nothing extra over regular people in the country but the right to vote. One must have done service before one is allowed to vote. However, in this society, one becomes a citizen AFTER they have finished their term. In other words, you must have served in the past to make those decisions, but you have no say WHILE you are serving. The rationale behind this, being that if one is alreayd serving, one is too close to the action to make calls on it. I honestly always liked the idea.
 
MSgt said:
Only to those who received their priveledges by merely being born here.
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The word you are looking for is "rights".
 
MSgt said:
Well, currently my enemy is the radical and extremist base of Islam. Local fighters in Iraq and Afghanistan are merely caught up in the fight. What are you talking about?
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See, they are an enemy of sorts. But the problem is that we cant fight them conventionally. As you said..too many others caught up in it. Now, bear in mind, that ex military or not, I am, for the most part a pacifist. I would not refuse to take up arms if attacked, but beyond that..
You can't fight terrorism with guns. For every terrorist you kill, you breed 10 more. They multiply exponentially. Our military is not useless in the fight..but to just send them out fighting is not the way to solve this issue. And we are straying far off subject, and likely to get redress yelling at us to stay on topic.
 
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