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Obama will not extend Bush tax cuts to wealthy

OscarB63 said:
call it worth or whatever you want. all I know is that it isn't right to force a company to pay some idiot $7.25 an hour to stand behind a counter at Mickey Ds or bag groceries at Safeway.
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Maybe. But if we have people working who can't support them selves, we're not better off. While I don't have strong opinions on this, I can see why a person working a job would like to know he can at least make a minimum of some sort. Where that line should be is debatable, but I see no reason not to try and encourage paying a living wage.
 
OscarB63 said:
call it worth or whatever you want. all I know is that it isn't right to force a company to pay some idiot $7.25 an hour to stand behind a counter at Mickey Ds or bag groceries at Safeway.
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Why? What's wrong with the government forcing a minimum wage? If you can't afford paying minimum wage, then you probably should not be in business.
 
Boo Radley said:
Maybe. But if we have people working who can't support them selves, we're not better off. While I don't have strong opinions on this, I can see why a person working a job would like to know he can at least make a minimum of some sort. Where that line should be is debatable, but I see no reason not to try and encourage paying a living wage.
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I guess I am just too cynical. I have seen too many of these minimum wage earners whine and cry about how they can't afford this or that...but they can afford to smoke 3 packs of cigs a day and drink 2-3 cases of beer every Friday night.

I have a cousin who is a prime example. Moron dropped out of school at 16. married his girlfriend and proceeded to have 3 kids. works at a mobile home manufacturer making 8 buck an hour. Always complains because they never have any money and they can't afford health insurance for the kids. Him and his wife both smoke at least 2 packs of Marlboros a day each.

you do the math. 4 packs per day X $4.00 per pack X 30 days per month = $480 Bucks a month on cigs. You can get a decent major medical policy for under $480 per month.

A high school drop out shouldn't expect to be able to live the lifestyle of someone with a masters degree.

No one "deserves" a living wage. They deserve the opportunity to earn a living wage.
 
Boo Radley said:
Maybe. But if we have people working who can't support them selves, we're not better off. While I don't have strong opinions on this, I can see why a person working a job would like to know he can at least make a minimum of some sort. Where that line should be is debatable, but I see no reason not to try and encourage paying a living wage.
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Because it encourages worthless behavior. Assume you only want to make that living wage. First off, under this theory, why would you work at the company where you have to work hard? You wouldn't. You would go somewhere where you could be lazy. Now what if you slack off completely? Well, you still have to be paid that living wage. So then, logically following this shouldn't firing someone be illegal because it is like paying them nothing?

Ensuring a certain wage is nothing more than an entitlement that rewards laziness and in the end affects production which hurts all of us.
 
pbrauer said:
Why? What's wrong with the government forcing a minimum wage? If you can't afford paying minimum wage, then you probably should not be in business.
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whats wrong is that it screws the rest of us. the company "affords to pay" minimum wage by passing the cost along to the consumer...which (if you haven't figured it out) is you and me.

Why should I have to pay more for products I need in order to subsidize some retard's income.
 
pbrauer said:
Why? What's wrong with the government forcing a minimum wage? If you can't afford paying minimum wage, then you probably should not be in business.
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Then explain the people who choose to work for those companies. Why would they make that deal unless they see themselves as better off for it?
 
phattonez said:
Because it encourages worthless behavior. Assume you only want to make that living wage. First off, under this theory, why would you work at the company where you have to work hard? You wouldn't. You would go somewhere where you could be lazy. Now what if you slack off completely? Well, you still have to be paid that living wage. So then, logically following this shouldn't firing someone be illegal because it is like paying them nothing?

Ensuring a certain wage is nothing more than an entitlement that rewards laziness and in the end affects production which hurts all of us.
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bravo, excellent point
 
Boo Radley said:
Only in practice, the company offering 15, goes to 20 until it pushes the other out of business, then it's 6. ;)

So was the job worth 10? 15? 20? or 6?

Like I said, worth isn't the right word. And it is why there is often contention between employer and employee.
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This is based on monopoly economics and for this to be true, I'd like you to point out to me just one monopoly that did not have the support of government.
 
phattonez said:
Because it encourages worthless behavior. Assume you only want to make that living wage. First off, under this theory, why would you work at the company where you have to work hard? You wouldn't. You would go somewhere where you could be lazy. Now what if you slack off completely? Well, you still have to be paid that living wage. So then, logically following this shouldn't firing someone be illegal because it is like paying them nothing?

Ensuring a certain wage is nothing more than an entitlement that rewards laziness and in the end affects production which hurts all of us.
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I'm not convinced it does anything of the kind. I can be fired if I don't do the job. My personal effort can be monitored and assessed regardless of how much you pay me. If you pay me 10 cents an hour, you won't keep me if I won't do the job and someone else will. My effort applies to keeping the job and not how much I make. In fact, too many jobs don't pay extra for effort. A nurse makes whatever the pay scale is and her productivity is nmot rewarded in any way, for example. Do we arguing that we're encouraging nurses to slack off? Is there no other motivation for the nurse?

Many of these sterotypical hypothesis's lack any evidence to support them, and as such are suspect. I really find this one suspect.
 
OscarB63 said:
I guess I am just too cynical. I have seen too many of these minimum wage earners whine and cry about how they can't afford this or that...but they can afford to smoke 3 packs of cigs a day and drink 2-3 cases of beer every Friday night.

I have a cousin who is a prime example. Moron dropped out of school at 16. married his girlfriend and proceeded to have 3 kids. works at a mobile home manufacturer making 8 buck an hour. Always complains because they never have any money and they can't afford health insurance for the kids. Him and his wife both smoke at least 2 packs of Marlboros a day each.

you do the math. 4 packs per day X $4.00 per pack X 30 days per month = $480 Bucks a month on cigs. You can get a decent major medical policy for under $480 per month.

A high school drop out shouldn't expect to be able to live the lifestyle of someone with a masters degree.

No one "deserves" a living wage. They deserve the opportunity to earn a living wage.
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You just summed it up perfectly.

Democrats have built a party out of telling these types that "it's not their fault." I've got some extended family like that, too, Oscar. None of them have the courage to look themselves in the mirror and deal with the reality that they created for themselves.
 
OscarB63 said:
I guess I am just too cynical. I have seen too many of these minimum wage earners whine and cry about how they can't afford this or that...but they can afford to smoke 3 packs of cigs a day and drink 2-3 cases of beer every Friday night.

I have a cousin who is a prime example. Moron dropped out of school at 16. married his girlfriend and proceeded to have 3 kids. works at a mobile home manufacturer making 8 buck an hour. Always complains because they never have any money and they can't afford health insurance for the kids. Him and his wife both smoke at least 2 packs of Marlboros a day each.

you do the math. 4 packs per day X $4.00 per pack X 30 days per month = $480 Bucks a month on cigs. You can get a decent major medical policy for under $480 per month.

A high school drop out shouldn't expect to be able to live the lifestyle of someone with a masters degree.

No one "deserves" a living wage. They deserve the opportunity to earn a living wage.
Click to expand...

Well, having been poor, I know when you can't afford much, things like smoking take on greater importance (I quit 20 years ago). And when you can't have much, you feel you deserve something you really don't. But such faults are not limited to the poor or minimum wage earners. Every economic class has its set of whinners. Sadly. ;)
 
phattonez said:
This is based on monopoly economics and for this to be true, I'd like you to point out to me just one monopoly that did not have the support of government.
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Well, Walmart may well be one soon. ;)
 
Boo Radley said:
I'm not convinced it does anything of the kind. I can be fired if I don't do the job. My personal effort can be monitored and assessed regardless of how much you pay me. If you pay me 10 cents an hour, you won't keep me if I won't do the job and someone else will. My effort applies to keeping the job and not how much I make. In fact, too many jobs don't pay extra for effort. A nurse makes whatever the pay scale is and her productivity is nmot rewarded in any way, for example. Do we arguing that we're encouraging nurses to slack off? Is there no other motivation for the nurse?

Many of these sterotypical hypothesis's lack any evidence to support them, and as such are suspect. I really find this one suspect.
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LOL, so you should pay people extra for doing what they were hired to do in the first place?

First off, THEY DO. People like that get promoted. They get bonuses. They go places. But you wouldn't know them because they are the conservative Tea Party types you hate so much.
 
Erod said:
LOL, so you should pay people extra for doing what they were hired to do in the first place?

First off, THEY DO. People like that get promoted. They get bonuses. They go places. But you wouldn't know them because they are the conservative Tea Party types you hate so much.
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Nope. I was addressing the charge that if I pay them a minimum they would just slack off. I suggest they do the job even with a certain wage set and don't need extra.

And no, nurses don't have much promotion opportunity. They really don't. And what they have, is related to getting more education.
 
Boo Radley said:
Nope. I was addressing the charge that if I pay them a minimum they would just slack off. I suggest they do the job even with a certain wage set and don't need extra.

And no, nurses don't have much promotion opportunity. They really don't. And what they have, is related to getting more education.
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Shouldn't it be that way? Nurses are not in a diagnostic role; they are basically highly trained fine restaurant waitresses.
 
Boo Radley said:
I'm not convinced it does anything of the kind. I can be fired if I don't do the job. My personal effort can be monitored and assessed regardless of how much you pay me. If you pay me 10 cents an hour, you won't keep me if I won't do the job and someone else will. My effort applies to keeping the job and not how much I make. In fact, too many jobs don't pay extra for effort. A nurse makes whatever the pay scale is and her productivity is nmot rewarded in any way, for example. Do we arguing that we're encouraging nurses to slack off? Is there no other motivation for the nurse?

Many of these sterotypical hypothesis's lack any evidence to support them, and as such are suspect. I really find this one suspect.
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If you have the ability to fire someone then you don't have a living wage. What about someone who works at half the productivity that they should be working at. Can we pay them half the living wage?

Also, the nurse who slacks off gets laid off.
 
Erod said:
Shouldn't it be that way? Nurses are not in a diagnostic role; they are basically highly trained fine restaurant waitresses.
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I know some nurses who would skin you alive for that comment. :lamo

But whether it should or not isn't the issue. The issue is that they perform, as most do, even with a set pay scale. Knowing they will make a living and and not get rich doesn't prevent them from performing, which disputes, I think, the encouraging them to slack off claim I was responding to.
 
phattonez said:
If you have the ability to fire someone then you don't have a living wage. What about someone who works at half the productivity that they should be working at. Can we pay them half the living wage?

Also, the nurse who slacks off gets laid off.
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You can fire them. No one suggests you get a living wage for not working, at least not in our discussion. but we find slackers at all economic levels, and we find hard workers at all levels, and pay doesn't seem to be the major factor as best I can tell. perhaps you have more evidence than i do?
 
Boo Radley said:
Well, having been poor, I know when you can't afford much, things like smoking take on greater importance (I quit 20 years ago). And when you can't have much, you feel you deserve something you really don't. But such faults are not limited to the poor or minimum wage earners. Every economic class has its set of whinners. Sadly. ;)
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true. I grew up poor. was poor while I worked my way through college. I never felt like I deserved anything I really didn't. I guess that is why I have so very little sympathy for "the poor". I have walked a mile in their shoes, I have been there. I have never claimed to be an exceptionally gifted or talented man, so if I can pull myself up out of the poorhouse, then so can they. The fact that they do not have the desire, motivation or determination to do so pisses me off...especially when they expect me to subsidize their lifestyle through high taxes and higher priced goods and services.
 
OscarB63 said:
true. I grew up poor. was poor while I worked my way through college. I never felt like I deserved anything I really didn't. I guess that is why I have so very little sympathy for "the poor". I have walked a mile in their shoes, I have been there. I have never claimed to be an exceptionally gifted or talented man, so if I can pull myself up out of the poorhouse, then so can they. The fact that they do not have the desire, motivation or determination to do so pisses me off...especially when they expect me to subsidize their lifestyle through high taxes and higher priced goods and services.
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You may be more exceptional than you think, and you, like many, may not realize the help you had along the way, . . . the wife who encouraged, the sister or brother who offered a meal, the friend who was there at just the right tiem. At any case, what we gage as being likely is not the same as that which is possible. If everyone could do it, a majority likely would. It's kind of like grading, most students should make a "C" if your content is properly challenging. That means most will make the average, whatever that is, and few will make the top and few will completely fail. Life is kind of like this as well, and maybe harder. So, we have to ask what is likely, and not what is possible.
 
OscarB63 said:
whats wrong is that it screws the rest of us. the company "affords to pay" minimum wage by passing the cost along to the consumer...which (if you haven't figured it out) is you and me.

Why should I have to pay more for products I need in order to subsidize some retard's income.
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The price of products is determined by supply and demand, the more demand the higher the price.

(As a former member of the U.S. Army, I would appreciate it that you not use such language wearing an uniform. Please take it off.)
 
pbrauer said:
The price of products is determined by supply and demand, the more demand the higher the price.
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the price of products is also determined by what it costs the producer to make them. artificial minimum wages drive that price higher.

(As a former member of the U.S. Army, I would appreciate it that you not use such language wearing an uniform. Please take it off.)
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forum must have a timer on edits so I will simply rephrase here:

"Why should I have to pay more for products I need in order to subsidize some lazy piece of ****'s income?"
 
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Boo Radley said:
You can fire them. No one suggests you get a living wage for not working, at least not in our discussion. but we find slackers at all economic levels, and we find hard workers at all levels, and pay doesn't seem to be the major factor as best I can tell. perhaps you have more evidence than i do?
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Then why should they get paid a living wage when they don't want to work hard? If they do their job at half of what they're able, should they still get a living wage?
 
phattonez said:
But it's not. So point out just one monopoly that did not have government support.
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Well, I'm not an expert on present day Monopolies, but I suspect Barry C. Lynn's book, "Cornered: The New Monopoly Capitalism and the Economics of Destruction" might present a few.
 
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